Fences in depth

[Sleepy]

Throughout DS, the fence system felt like it fell just short of what it could be. I think Thief 4 should have some sort of loyalty and trust system for fences. Some should be informants, for or against you, others you might genuinely form a bond of loyalty to each other with work and time. Your relationship with a fence should affect how likely they are to turn on you, but some should turn no matter how buddy-buddy you are and others should never turn you in. How scared of you they are could be just as important as how much they like or dislike you. Selling too much to one fence should not only be risky because they might get caught and leave you high and dry, but it might actually increase the odds of that fence getting caught and being linked to you. This ties in closely with faction relations and could interact with your in-game story type choices as much as your skill. If you fail, some fences should be less likely to deal with such an obvious amateur. Also, with "heat" or guard awareness or whatever you want to call it, tied to either yourself or an area, due to sloppiness or consistently stealing from one area more than another could influence what fences are available at any time and increase the likely hood of a fence being caught.

This whole idea is not very fleshed out yet, but do you think it would add a layer of immersion and thought, or just add unnecessary complexity? Please discuss.

[jtr7]

It'll be much better if the fences and sellers are in locations that make sense, are not always in a shop, but sometimes waiting on the streets, meeting people at rented spaces, have bodyguards or snipers in the trees, are just starting out or seasoned and experienced, are not all citizens of The City, and seem to have lived in that world all their lives before the player meets them for the first time--which shouldn't often feel like Garrett's just meeting them, too. They shouldn't all have the same template for the interactions, but be made unique and organic and set apart from each other, with various levels of knowledge about the world, and not always serving the game, but always serving immersion and a sense of a living world the player has only stepped into at that point in time. Garrett should only feel fairly comfortable with them or not comfortable at all, and be able to get revenge for betrayals. Garrett should be able to rob fences and stores blind, but not if he wants to be a repeat customer, and there should be consequences. The stores shouldn't all have only one crystal yet all of everything else, nor should it have other real obvious game-like contrivances, but should take from the TDP/TMA model and make it live. And not every new mission should have stores and fences in a "live"-action setting.

[Vae]

:thumb:...Agreed...summed up nicely.

[Hypevosa]

It'll be much better if the fences and sellers are in locations that make sense, are not always in a shop, but sometimes waiting on the streets, meeting people at rented spaces, have bodyguards or snipers in the trees, are just starting out or seasoned and experienced, are not all citizens of The City, and seem to have lived in that world all their lives before the player meets them for the first time--which shouldn't often feel like Garrett's just meeting them, too. They shouldn't all have the same template for the interactions, but be made unique and organic and set apart from each other, with various levels of knowledge about the world, and not always serving the game, but always serving immersion and a sense of a living world the player has only stepped into at that point in time. Garrett should only feel fairly comfortable with them or not comfortable at all, and be able to get revenge for betrayals. Garrett should be able to rob fences and stores blind, but not if he wants to be a repeat customer, and there should be consequences. The stores shouldn't all have only one crystal yet all of everything else, nor should it have other real obvious game-like contrivances, but should take from the TDP/TMA model and make it live. And not every new mission should have stores and fences in a "live"-action setting.

I agree.

I still fancy the idea of having stores use some sort of cover-up to hide what's really going on, a kind of gilded sale where it looks like one thing is going on, but something entirely different is happening and the watch and hammers just don't know about it. I keep giving this example:

Garrett enters a store he knows to sell blackmarket goods. The clerk sees him and recognizes that he's not your average customer. Walking up to the counter, Garrett is welcomed like anyone else, and slid a basket with a sheet of paper in it - reading the paper reveals that certain items in the store represent other items. Such the handkerchiefs being the elemental arrows: blue is water, red is fire, green is moss, and white is gas, black is broadheads and brown is rope arrows. So the player then goes to whatever items he wants to purchase and places them in the basket. Seeing another questionable patron in the store, the player may notice that they have something that they want in their basket - for example a white handkerchief. So the player can then attempt to lift it, and put it in their own basket. Checking out, the player pushes over his basket and a purse of gold, the clerk says that it will all be packaged and to go to the door in the back alley to pick it up. Going to the back, the player finds a bag with all the goods purchased in it.

[jtr7]

Yeah. I knew I was forgetting stuff. We talked about a lot of things in the other thread. A store has to contain all the wares, but can have various fronts and not need to be a store at all, but a fence can be anyone, anywhere, and only have the cash, like when Garrett sold off the Horn of Quintus for the biggest-ever payment. A fence can also send someone in their stead and a store owner can have someone filling in, too. A fence can be robbed before Garrett arrives, same with a store. There can be more back-stabbing treachery among competitors and between hostile Wardens. There can be moles and spies and independents within the networks. There can now be ex-Keepers working for or against Garrett.

[Hypevosa]

I don't even remember what thread that was in anymore...

We've been talking about this game too long XD

I could really use some actual news to bolster my enthusiasm for this game.

[Voodoo]

As could we all dear brother Hypevosa. Some news would be most welcome but I fear our cries will fall upon deaf ears no matter how long we shout for something.

[Flashart]

If Garrett robs a store can he still go in and buy stock? If Garrett robs a fence how do fences in subsequent missions view him?
Robbing AND Buying means you've got too much gear freely available, while stealing from a fence means you've got to have a penalty if he gets caught (Notoriety?)
I've said before I like the idea of a cash/ inventory management system but it's got to be integrated across the board so as you get an "even" progression rather than huge spikes of loot/ equipment.

Can Garrett do a "private" job for the fence within the current level? A sort of "side quest" which could be cashed in before exiting the level?

[Namdrol]

I don't even remember what thread that was in anymore...

We've been talking about this game too long XD

I could really use some actual news to bolster my enthusiasm for this game.

This
I lurk and read every post but have so little inclination to post

[Hypevosa]

Robbing AND Buying means you've got too much gear freely available, while stealing from a fence means you've got to have a penalty if he gets caught (Notoriety?)

Well then why not apply reality to it?

If you've stolen it, you cannot buy it.

If you've not bought it, the vendor makes less money, and is unable to keep stock high, or buy better/newer items. They even may charge more than they already do since they need to make up for losses.

If you steal from them again, they have less and worse, and so on until they're just not there anymore.

If you purchase items, they get money, and are able to restock and stock more/better items.

Stealing from a fence means they cannot buy as much next time and have less gold to put towards your items. You may end up unable to fence something since your fence is too poor to afford it, and people don't take gold cups as currency.

Allow it, but be sure to have the balances there so that it doesn't ruin game mechanics by allowing Garrett to get a billion of every item and a billion gold.

[Jack Lantern]

It'll be much better if the fences and sellers are in locations that make sense, are not always in a shop, but sometimes waiting on the streets, meeting people at rented spaces, have bodyguards or snipers in the trees, are just starting out or seasoned and experienced, are not all citizens of The City, and seem to have lived in that world all their lives before the player meets them for the first time--which shouldn't often feel like Garrett's just meeting them, too.

One of my biggest problems with how fences are represented are the shops. Most fences don't have shops, or they exist as a cover for what they're really doing. TDS's Black Alley was a good idea until you quickly realize that actual stores exist... that BUYS hot property, and they don't hide it.

[jtr7]

Yep!

[Herr_Garrett]

Yeah. I knew I was forgetting stuff. We talked about a lot of things in the other thread. A store has to contain all the wares, but can have various fronts and not need to be a store at all, but a fence can be anyone, anywhere, and only have the cash, like when Garrett sold off the Horn of Quintus for the biggest-ever payment. A fence can also send someone in their stead and a store owner can have someone filling in, too. A fence can be robbed before Garrett arrives, same with a store. There can be more back-stabbing treachery among competitors and between hostile Wardens. There can be moles and spies and independents within the networks. There can now be ex-Keepers working for or against Garrett.

I agree.

I still fancy the idea of having stores use some sort of cover-up to hide what's really going on, a kind of gilded sale where it looks like one thing is going on, but something entirely different is happening and the watch and hammers just don't know about it. I keep giving this example:

Garrett enters a store he knows to sell blackmarket goods. The clerk sees him and recognizes that he's not your average customer. Walking up to the counter, Garrett is welcomed like anyone else, and slid a basket with a sheet of paper in it - reading the paper reveals that certain items in the store represent other items. Such the handkerchiefs being the elemental arrows: blue is water, red is fire, green is moss, and white is gas, black is broadheads and brown is rope arrows. So the player then goes to whatever items he wants to purchase and places them in the basket. Seeing another questionable patron in the store, the player may notice that they have something that they want in their basket - for example a white handkerchief. So the player can then attempt to lift it, and put it in their own basket. Checking out, the player pushes over his basket and a purse of gold, the clerk says that it will all be packaged and to go to the door in the back alley to pick it up. Going to the back, the player finds a bag with all the goods purchased in it.

It'll be much better if the fences and sellers are in locations that make sense, are not always in a shop, but sometimes waiting on the streets, meeting people at rented spaces, have bodyguards or snipers in the trees, are just starting out or seasoned and experienced, are not all citizens of The City, and seem to have lived in that world all their lives before the player meets them for the first time--which shouldn't often feel like Garrett's just meeting them, too. They shouldn't all have the same template for the interactions, but be made unique and organic and set apart from each other, with various levels of knowledge about the world, and not always serving the game, but always serving immersion and a sense of a living world the player has only stepped into at that point in time. Garrett should only feel fairly comfortable with them or not comfortable at all, and be able to get revenge for betrayals. Garrett should be able to rob fences and stores blind, but not if he wants to be a repeat customer, and there should be consequences. The stores shouldn't all have only one crystal yet all of everything else, nor should it have other real obvious game-like contrivances, but should take from the TDP/TMA model and make it live. And not every new mission should have stores and fences in a "live"-action setting.

Throughout DS, the fence system felt like it fell just short of what it could be. I think Thief 4 should have some sort of loyalty and trust system for fences. Some should be informants, for or against you, others you might genuinely form a bond of loyalty to each other with work and time. Your relationship with a fence should affect how likely they are to turn on you, but some should turn no matter how buddy-buddy you are and others should never turn you in. How scared of you they are could be just as important as how much they like or dislike you. Selling too much to one fence should not only be risky because they might get caught and leave you high and dry, but it might actually increase the odds of that fence getting caught and being linked to you. This ties in closely with faction relations and could interact with your in-game story type choices as much as your skill. If you fail, some fences should be less likely to deal with such an obvious amateur. Also, with "heat" or guard awareness or whatever you want to call it, tied to either yourself or an area, due to sloppiness or consistently stealing from one area more than another could influence what fences are available at any time and increase the likely hood of a fence being caught.

This whole idea is not very fleshed out yet, but do you think it would add a layer of immersion and thought, or just add unnecessary complexity? Please discuss.

This is gibberish, guys. We don't want Thief to be like Oblivion and GTA mix't, right?
This is way out of Thief's scope, and I believe would actually diminish that peculiar atmosphere of the games. I, for my part, want no interaction; I want to "interact" with people by reading their diaries, letters, notes, etc.
In Thief, we never got to know anyone in depth, and neither did anyone else vice versa. If Garrett is never seen, never caught, then how does he form a "relationship" with a fence? The whole thing should be conducted outside the actual game... Like in DP or MA.

[jtr7]

I'm talking Farkus vs. frikkin' Black Market Bertha.
Cutty vs. Heartless Perry.
Relationships Garrett had previously, more numerous, shady and reliable, but each one very different and dealt with very different, and those like that and Basso.

I don't want it to go down like Oblivion/GTA at all. It can be done more imaginatively than those cliches.

I want it to be more like classic Thief expanded, avoiding TDS's rubberstamped stores/fences, and making it all organic feeling once again, but not that overly scripted RPG thing.

It ain't done right if it's been done to death already.

TDP and TMA had a full networks of thievery going, and TDS just totally screwed over the sense of a bigger world and more things going on in a whole City and beyond. In the older titles, the relationships were already established, and you may have forgotten I can't stand the idea of open-world for all the crap it will do to ruin the game, so no fence or seller will ever be seen more than once if each mission is kept separate unto itself, with story/briefings/cutscenes transitioning between them, and leaping forward in time and across distances of miles most of the time, with mission maps of 4 times the gamespace, like as before in many ways, but clearly expanded and given more life, and the buying and selling going on live and on location, not a menu and/or parchment or briefing most of the time. Where TMA had Garrett getting a key from a character during a conversation, and TDP had Garrett getting a key and maps from a Hammerite, and Thief Gold had getting a key and maps from Raoul, T4 could build in the UI for a transaction for moments just like that but for swapping cash for things, or things for cash. The actual worst thing about the idea is the players killing or harming the fence or seller, and even though TDS prevented that, the lack of being able to move around in a store was worse than a faceless menu screen.

[Tryst]

the lack of being able to move around in a store was worse than a faceless menu screen.
I have to agree there. Also the constant babble from the fence made me want to scream "SHUT THE F*** UP!" The poor Mae West impersonation by Bertha didn't help either, it became very irritating. What made it more annoying was that there was only one fence who wasn't regarding Garrett as their all time hero and all but one of the female fences (and maybe the males too), were just about ready to jump into bed with him on the spot.

Can we please get away from the idol worshipping? Just like Garrett, they are there to do a job if we must have them. I would prefer to go back to the T1/T2 style and show fences only when it becomes necessary for the plot.

Like Garrett, I tend to be a lone wolf, picking and choosing my friends carefully. I know from experience that it becomes very uncomfortable when one starts to regard you as their hero. As a person who prefers to remain quite private, having someone putting it about that you're some kind of superman can be very annoying. Needless to say, I lost contact with that "friend" by choice long ago. I can imagine Garrett being just as uncomfortable with fences doing everything short of bowing at his feet.

[jtr7]

A repost, tailored for this thread:

Garrett's associates, not including some of those that are unnamed:

The full list of Garrett's social contacts, who were good contacts, or willingly helped him to whatever degree, including those who the player can choose to not take the patch of action that creates the positive connection, are as follows:
Basso & Jenivere and Basso's sister, Artemus & Keeper Nate, Carmen Cantata, Sangar, Farkus, Rudyard, Zhan, Manny Jabrielle, Cutty, Dikket, Tundis, Issyt the Beggar, possibly Felix, the person in the briefing buying the Horn of Quintus from Garrett, Viktoria, Downwinders, Giry, Brothers Murus & Renault, Hammerites, Inspector Drept, Lauryl, Sammy, Lotus, Heartless Perry, Black Market Bertha, Thomas, Dahlia, Marla Madison, Ramien, Sam Swarthy, Dyan, Widow Moira and Curtis.

Break from Cragscleft Prison, Briefing: "An associate of mine was confined there, and has provided me with a map."
Break from Cragscleft Prison, Store item, M3HolyWaterTip: "A former prisoner of Cragscleft says he has info about \ the haunted mines. Cost:100"
Break from Cragscleft Prison, M3cellblocktip, which reads: "According to Dikket, a 'heretic' who was recently let out of Cragscleft, Cutty's being held in cell block four."

The Thieves' Guild, briefing: "I have a rough map of the complex I got from...'sources' from the inside. ... Have to be careful—the Downwinder's know me all too well."

The Haunted Cathedral, Store item, M7TIP2: "An acquaintance is willing to sell you some pages from a \ journal that he claims belonged to a long-ago fighter of the undead. \ Cost: 200"

The Mage Towers, briefing: "I bribed some servants to get me a map of the common grounds..."

Lost City, Store item, M9TIP2: "An acquaintance [Sangar] will sell you a commission he has to \ pick up some antiquities which you may be able to find around the Lost \ City. Cost:150"

Song of the Caverns, briefing: "An informant of mine, Giry, made a home for himself in these caverns after he lost his job tending the ticket counter of a nearby opera house."

The Maw of Chaos, Store item, M14TIP2: "One of the Hammerites is willing to offer you some \ information he found, but insists that you pay for it - something \ about not sullying his soul by helping thieves. Cost:100"

Shipping... and Receiving, Manny Jabrielle, the fence to whom Garrett redirected Gilver's shipment to.
Shipping... and Receiving, maybe the one who offered M02TIP.

Framed, maybe the one who wrote M04TIP1.
Framed, briefing: "...my visitor said the job was too sensitive to go through the usual channels. He claimed that an old acquaintance of mine told him where to find me. I was about to ask him who our mutual friend was, when he managed to... distract me."

Blackmail, M09TIP: "I hear the foundation under the porch of Truart Estate has a large crack which you should be able to crawl under. Check behind the bushes for it. There must be an easy way into the mansion under there. \ -Tundis"

First City Bank & Trust, Store item, M07B12: "G - \ Tried me a creak at First City B&T come two years back. More than I \ was skopped out for, tell you that, not my best o jobs. Had me a left \ little finger afore that, for one. Trouble be, the place spents a \ full purse on the damned TILE floors. Couldn't take a step back nor \ fort, should I set an echo up to the roof. Had me a dram more o \ nerve, mights have gone slow-feet enough and get by, or wait \ patientlike till the thugmen be past. But no, had me to go and raise \ a noise on that tile and out they jump. No worry for you, mate, \ all your talents. But for me, well, get me a coin and prick your \ ears samewise, seems a fair trade. \ -Zhan"

Life of the Party, Store item, M11B14: "A local merchant [Rudyard] may not have the items you need, \ but he does know where you can obtain them. Cost: 200"
Life of the Party, Store item, M11B15, which reads: "G, \ Got some news for ya. A guy named Valencia just entered Dayport, and he's only there for a couple of days. He's some kinda diamond exporter...deals with rough stones. Well, while he's in town, he's storing a pouch of uncut diamonds at the Dayport Trader's Bank. Security there is supposed to be pretty loose -- hell, the place is on the top floor of one of them marble buildings, so they must not expect any company, if you know what I mean. Should be fairly straightforward, if you take the 'thieves' highway.'"

Precious Cargo Objectives: "A smuggler friend has commissioned you with finding and stealing the man's antique navigation globe."

[Tryst]

Maybe you should also add Constantine/The Trickster. While his information was self serving, he did give Garrett information about the eye.

[jtr7]

Sort of, yeah. Heh heh heh. :thumb:

Garrett: "What exactly is this...item?"

[The view changes to the medium-shot of the three silhouettes again.]

Constantine: "It is the gemstone called ‘The Eye’, for its unusual—"

[The view moves again to Viktoria's face.]

Viktoria: [Filling in again] "—appearance."

[She turns her eyes towards Garrett. Then the view returns to the medium-shot of the three silhouettes.]

Constantine: "Yes. Kept hidden in the sealed cathedral deep inside the halls of the scum Hammerites. Oh, but forgive me. You are, possibly...friendly with the Order of the Hammer?"

Garrett: "No. Fanatics make unreliable friends."

[The view moves to Garrett.]

Constantine: "Excellent. I am prepared to offer you quite a sum. A hundred thousand, upon receipt of The Eye."

[The view returns to show the three of them as silhouettes.]

Garrett: "I don't see how I can refuse such an offer."

[As he speaks, Viktoria turns towards the right, and starts to step slowly in that direction.]

Constantine: "Marvelous. Viktoria can fill you in on all the particulars. And Mister Garrett...the sword...keep it."

[As he speaks, Garrett stands, and the two of them shake hands. The view changes to the table where Constantine spilled some drops of Biddleybong. The view focuses on these drops.]

Constantine: "You have earned it. But also...I believe you'll find it useful in your quest..."

[Flashart]

I'd like to see Fences given a role within the gameworld. If, however it's just used as a way of getting a few lame characters in then I'd settle for notes appearing between missions.
T4 could benefit by introducing someone new that could carry through to T5. A Fence is a good choice as Garrett doesn't have a direct relationship with them, but could be used as an initiation of plot strand.

[Hypevosa]

This is gibberish, guys. We don't want Thief to be like Oblivion and GTA mix't, right?
This is way out of Thief's scope, and I believe would actually diminish that peculiar atmosphere of the games. I, for my part, want no interaction; I want to "interact" with people by reading their diaries, letters, notes, etc.
In Thief, we never got to know anyone in depth, and neither did anyone else vice versa. If Garrett is never seen, never caught, then how does he form a "relationship" with a fence? The whole thing should be conducted outside the actual game... Like in DP or MA.

Well, if we want the return of the equipment screen... no, this isn't terribly useful. But if the idea is used for having lots of city around mission locations, and maybe having shoping/fencing done there, then it would be a great option. Obviously it's an option for sandboxes too, but the point, to me at least, is that it's more than a menu, and alot more than just standing still and staring at a bunch of merchandise and not being able to do anything but click the merchandise to buy it, and somehow the store hasn't been taken under though it's blatantly illegal.

Why do you not want to interact? it's a friggin videogame for god's sake, the whole point is to interact or else it would just be a book or a movie. But I think you're adding more to it than we're stating. We aren't talking about massive dialogue trees (or any for that matter) being included with merchants and fences or anything, just a more interesting user interface/interaction than a black menu with a buy it now button.

[DarknessFalls]

Fences should be banned from the Thief series. One word: boring (in all games... And not needed or desired for me in Thief)

[Namdrol]

Got to say I agree with Darkness Falls.
Fences are a pointless, boring, mini game.
The worst thing about Stalker SOC for me.

[Herr_Garrett]

Got to say I agree with Darkness Falls.
Fences are a pointless, boring, mini game.
The worst thing about Stalker SOC for me.

I cordially concur.

[Hypevosa]

Fences should be banned from the Thief series. One word: boring (in all games... And not needed or desired for me in Thief)

Got to say I agree with Darkness Falls.
Fences are a pointless, boring, mini game.
The worst thing about Stalker SOC for me.

I cordially concur.

There's always this:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/no-more-fences-minimod-10-for-shoc

XD

[Herr_Garrett]

Methinks I hate and love you.
Here's one for you, then:

'Why should Garrett live in Black Alley?'
'???'
'Because fences make good neighbours!'
Obligatory drumroll.

[Hypevosa]

very nice.

You think you'll use that mod at all? XD