Just say NO to cutscene takedowns

[lastdual]

So I recently caught a glimpse of the leaked E3 footage of Deus Ex 3. For the most part, it looks really promising (granted it's pre-alpha so some of the visuals, such as dialogue animations and the ragdoll physics, are pretty rough around the edges), but one thing immediately stood out as a controversial feature to fans: stealth takedowns involve cutting to a floating 3rd-person camera for a "cinematic" kill/knockout animation.

Frankly, I can live with this in Deus Ex, as that series has never been a dedicated stealth experience. Thief, however, is just that. So let me make this very clear:

If I sneak up behind an enemy and then get a "press X to initialize cinematic, no-fail, knockout animation that cuts to 3rd person perspective!" prompt, I will kill someone (not in the game).

Devs, there is absolutely no place for this kind of thing in Thief, and the fans will totally crucify you if you put it in. These "cool, cinematic" cuts break immersion, take control out of the player's hands, and violate a principal tenement of traditional Thief stealth: until the moment my blackjack connects with the back of a guard's skull, there needs be room for error at every stage of the game.

I need to be able to miss, or mistakenly alert the guard at the last minute, or have the guard unexpectedly turn and notice me, etc. I want to feel like I am in control the whole time. So please, Deus Ex 3 is looking great, but don't follow in the steps of so many similar games (I'm looking at you, Splinter Cell: Conviction) and swap traditional takedowns for these terrible automated ones.

[jtr7]

I know. Don't give the player lots of freedom of movement and then "reward" them by taking control away to show off, especially when there are better things to be doing with animation and enhancing not being seen.

[Neb]

If I sneak up behind an enemy and then get a "press X to initialize cinematic, no-fail, knockout animation that cuts to 3rd person perspective!" prompt, I will kill someone

I'd just quietly move along and buy something I'm interested in instead.

Really though, how are they going to try and sell a Thief 4? This is the big-time, kiddo. Millions of dollars are riding on something that cannot afford to fail, a game where you're supposed to hide patiently in the shadows.

Bad things that you could expect are a horrible cover system, rope arrow auto-targetting, pre-scripted cinematic events (everywhere), acrobatics, emphasis on violence, etc.

[lastdual]

Really though, how are they going to try and sell a Thief 4?

This is a good question. My suggestion with regards to marketing Thief 4 would be not to focus on elements that a dozen other games already have done before and done better.

Thief needs to focus on its strength and the things that make it unique, and communicate those elements through their advertising efforts. Some ideas:

- Focus on the unique qualities of the steampunk-styled world and the colorful characters that populate it (Bioware has used the "sell your world" strategy plenty of times with success)

- Show off what the AI can do. Any AI can get killed. Show gamers that your AI behaves with depth, intelligence, self-preservation, team work, and a bit of unpredictability (this worked with the advertising for games such as Far Cry 2 {even if the result was less impressive than the demos]).

- Show off the choices available to the player; i.e. the variety of ways one could tackle the challenge of getting into a certain forbidden area, etc. (also done successfully in multiple games).

- Focus on showing intense, suspenseful moments. Don't underestimate the power of fear and suspense in marketing. Thief has always had a bit of the supernatural mixed in, and there are a lot of potential customers among survival-horror fans who are fed up with all their games ditching suspense in favor of more action.

There are plenty of marketing strategies for Thief. Advertising to potential customers by focusing on a bunch of "brutal kills" would be misleading, and could just as well backfire when those people learn more about the game. Moreover, products that try to go too "broad audience" often fail, as they don't have a real target market. Targeted products frequently sell better, provided your target isn't too tiny of a niche.

[negative_len]

I'd just quietly move along and buy something I'm interested in instead.

Really though, how are they going to try and sell a Thief 4? This is the big-time, kiddo. Millions of dollars are riding on something that cannot afford to fail, a game where you're supposed to hide patiently in the shadows.

Bad things that you could expect are a horrible cover system, rope arrow auto-targetting, pre-scripted cinematic events (everywhere), acrobatics, emphasis on violence, etc.

A good summary!

[s guy]

I'm actually starting to worry about thief 4. Up until now, I've been optimistic, but now that were starting to see deus ex and have basis for our fears, I'm actually very worried. Please, EM, don't do what other games are doing, that end up a nuisance, focus on what makes thief thief. This thread is the most important thread to watch, IMO. Please, follow what we say. Don't do cinematic takedowns, anything without control completely in the players hands, or anything that goes against what the first two thief games were (and what the third sadly stepped away from, not unforgivably, but such that you CANNOT do take one more step in the wrong direction)


Thank you EM.

[Vae]

I'll do more than say NO...I'll organize a torch mob if this were to happen...:mad:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5445/torchmob2.jpg

[Tryst]

I've been against cutscenes mid battle ever since Starlancer. Halfway through a dogfight and you would suddenly get a cutscene that left you wondering where your target went when the cutscne ended. By the time you've re-orientated, he managed to get behind you which now causes you a problem.

The same goes for any game, a cutscene dis-orientates you and can lead to you getting killed.

[jtr7]

And there's the secondary horror of eavesdropping on a conversation turning into nearly 2nd-Person, with the camera floating around the AIs up close. I don't know if the player is forced to hear the conversation, or if the player can retake control and move away from the scene, but I'm really hoping the camera isn't ruining the 1st-person's "you are there, in the dark, eavesdropping on the conversation over there", just to show off the facial expressions and body language in loving detail.

[ToMegaTherion]

Thief doesn't really have a cinematic theme at all, unlike some games, so this sort of thing would make no sense for Thief.

I don't entirely buy the argument that third person takedowns necessarily "break immersion" (whatever that means). Bloodlines had them and that is one of the most "immersive" games I've played. But considering the overall theme of a game is important before throwing things like this in (or indeed out). And it just doesn't seem to make sense for Thief.

And from a gameplay perspective it would probably take too long. I can imagine being frustrated waiting for the takedown to end so I can get out of the way before another guard turns up.

[Vae]

Thief doesn't really have a cinematic theme at all, unlike some games, so this sort of thing would make no sense for Thief.

Yes, it is true that up until now it hasn't. But alas, there is a secret horror lurking within most THIEF players minds, that no one wants to talk about...I speak of the possible kewlized, corrupted THI4F horror. There's a whole new team, with possibly a whole new outlook on how THIEF should be for 2011/2012. The fact is, that we can't rule out a cinematic THIEF, or a third person automated take-down with a garrote, or Garrett auto-healing...or even Garrett being in the game for that matter.

The horror of a kewlized THI4F, has slowly festered inside many for over a year now with only "THI4F" given as info. They haven't even changed the logo in over a year, which could likely mean they love the misguided kidz leet-speak logo...this does not set a good tone or impression on for what's to come. On top of this, we now see examples of some dreaded possibilities for THIEF presented in DX3.

Personally, I predict that EM/SE will stay more or less true to THIEF, and not kewlize it, for they would be fools tarnish the THIEF brand, and bring treachery upon the loyal fans. But until we have more information, we cannot rule out the possible horror...:(

[DarknessFalls]

I hope EM reads this thread. Although the DE3 game was looking pretty cool, imo, I agree the constant 1st person to 3rd person thing was pretty annoying.

How does EM sell the game? They show marketing trailers where Garrett takes out guards with a rail gun, where he attacks constantly with his sword, has 3rd person cinematic takedowns and mission fly-bys, and shows dialogue trees. But our little secret would be that all of these things are only seen in a tiny unlockae Easter egg mission. The rest of the game is pure Thief through and through.

[Tryst]

The horror of a kewlized THI4F, has slowly festered inside many for over a year now with only "THI4F" given as info. They haven't even changed the logo in over a year, which could likely mean they love the misguided kidz leet-speak logo...this does not set a good tone or impression on for what's to come. On top of this, we now see examples of some dreaded possibilities for THIEF presented in DX3.
It would be very sad if they bowed to the kiddie styles and made the game full of cut scenes and glorified violence. To begin with, it would no longer be Thief but some third party, badly hashed up attempt to copy. There are a lot of older generation game players and it's only recently that I realised how many gamers there are over 40 years old and it surprised the hell out of me. I am 50 myself and until recently, I thought I was in a minority. I even met a 46 year old female WOW player with 4 WOW accounts and also has a Wii, Xbox360 and a PS3 and two shelves full of games for them :eek: Hell, I thought I was a gaming addict :D

If EM cater less to the sensationalist players that kids tend to be and stick to the original style, they would be very surprised how well it takes off. Even for the fact that it's different to the average hack and slash games you see now.

[xAcerbusx]

Have to agree with that.
I also hate when a sticky situation is 'taken care of' with a cinematic. Metal Gear Solid is the absolute worst with this. A bunch of ninjas or whatever will converge on your position and you're thinking "Oooo... I guess I'll have to sneak my way out of a hairy situation".

...then, of course, Snake whips out some ridiculous bullet-time move and kills them all without the player ever even touching the controller.