Why LACK of the skill system may NOT be so bad....

[Human]

Seems like a lot of people think that the removal of the beloved DX1 skill point system and the introduction of the AUG point system degrades the RPG experience. Everyone seems to automatically label it as FAIL without any thoughts. The following is a discussion of why I think the designers of HR got rid of it (don't get me wrong, I loved the original DX1 concept) and why it can be successful if implemented correctly.

Deus Ex 1 Skills:

1. Computers
2. Electronics
3. Environmental Training
4. Lockpicking
5. Medicine
6. Swimming
7. Weapons Skills

Deus Ex 1 AUGs:

Combat Strength
Microfibral Muscle
Ballistic Protection
EMP Shield
Cloak
Radar Transparency
Synthetic Heart
Power Recirculator
Targeting
Vision Enhancement
Aggressive Defense System
Spy Drone
Regeneration
Energy Shield
Aqualung
Environmental Resistance
Run Silent
Speed Enhancement

As anyone can see; there are a lot more AUGs than skills. Introducing a point system for the AUGs multiplies the possibilities even greater.

Computers/Hacking - not much here in the original DX. You just have to be smart enough to upgrade once and then you can hack ANY system (albeit you take longer and can't have access to turrets and such). Kind of lame (DX1) since there is no real user input to hack. Now there is a better hunt/hunted mini-game. You always have to be on your toes (hacking is now done in real time) while concentrating on the enviornment and hacking at the same time. Better.

Electronics - Can be grouped into computers/hacking for HR.

Environmental Training - Can be covered by AUGs (Environmental Resistance). Better role-playing, if you want access to nasty places get the AUG, if not then you can't go.

Lockpicking - N/A; too bad.

Medicine - Health Regen - too bad. But can be covered by AUGs (Regeneration)

Swimming - I thought this was a joke the first time I played DX1. Can be covered by AUGs (Aqualung)

Weapon Skills - It has been stated that HR will implement a "use" base system correct? Still unconfirmed, but if so, it will improve role-playing elements (if you start out as a sniper, you should stay that way).

As you can see, many of the skills are pretty redundant to some of the available AUGs. I can easily see why the HR team decided to put the focus on AUGs instead. If you want to be a totally badass gunslinger, then you AUGs will reflect that. If you decide to use a stealth approach your AUGs will reflect that as well; you can't have both unlike DX1. And due to the AUG point system, your best abilities (skills) will reflect your RP elements as well. For example, in DX1, why would anyone install the AquaLung when you can have that be covered by skills (ie Swimming)? HR will force you to play by the cards you have in your hand which translates into more consequences in your choices.

[TrickyVein]

...especially since we now know that DXHR will have many various possible augmentations as well

[Pinky_Powers]

Human, if you're on some half-crazed crusade to dispel the stubbornly objectionable mindset of so many of our members... well, you're probably wasting your time. And you're almost certainly taking the wrong approach. But your ambitious intent is just and good, and I wish you well in this vain struggle.

[St. Mellow]

Human, if you're on some half-crazed crusade to dispel the stubbornly objectionable mindset of so many of our members... well, you're probably wasting your time. And you're almost certainly taking the wrong approach. But your ambitious intent is just and good, and I wish you well in this vain struggle.

What he said.

[Anasumtj]

The skills were a little wonky in relation to augs in the first game, but I don't see why they had to be scrapped entirely.

In Smith and Spector's IW post-mortem, they said that one of the things they overlooked when developing the game was the player's fantasy. IW tried to roll most of the previous skills into the augmentations, but it felt like their purposes were a lot narrower. They found that players liked the fantasy of building their characters from both skills and augs, like construction from the bottom-up. JC Denton evolved into the character you wanted him to be. The idea of building up a stealthy sniper was more engaging than simply getting "The Sniper Aug" or whatever. It's the same reason universal ammo felt so flat. Loading any kind of clip into my weapon and getting it to work might be a convenience, but nothing can replace that feeling of "Awesome, more .3006 ammo! Hell yeah!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74
Gets to it around 3:40.

They admit that there was redundancy and overlap with the original system, which I agree on. Hence why I would have preferred a refinement of skills as opposed to gutting them out entirely.

I'm waiting to see if how exactly skills are going to work in HR, but I do pine for the old system. I like a bit of micromanagement in my RPG.

[Laokin]

The skill system was redundant, and didn't have to go, but I'd rather it gone then be fail again.

They could have made the skills not redundant, eh?

[Oddness]

The two systems, along with all the items, complemented each other. It allowed you to compensate for deficiencies to become more well-rounded, or to double-up in areas you wanted to excel at.

If you wanted to be the up close melee brute you could do it with a combination of items, skill investment, and augmentations, and it held more value because it was a larger investment in terms of the choices you had to make.

Of course there will be apologists for every choice they make with HR, just as there were for every choice made with Invisible War. There were people on Ion Storm forums before and after the game came out evangelizing unified ammo.

[Human]

LOL. Yeah, it may not look like it, but I'm not trying to start a flame war. It's just that people from their experience with DX2 don't like the skills change. Understandable. All I'm doing here is to make people think about WHY things are done as they have been. Even DX1 fans have to admit that the skills were pretty redundant and as a Deus Ex game, the AUGs have to stay, while the skills have to go. It's still RPG in my book, it's just that DX1 almost gave you an illusion of skill points.

This was originally concieved to give people something to think about due to the amount of ONE-SIDED "lack of skills is lame" threads that have been recently popping up.

[beastrn]

The fear isn't that they won't use the old skill system stat for stat - it's that the new system will be a dumbed down handful of augs/skills with no meaningful sense of choice.

Such as what Anasumtj said.

OP is missing the point.

[Pinky_Powers]

LOL. Yeah, it may not look like it, but I'm not trying to start a flame war.

It's not that you're treading on flame-war territory, but rather the realm of futility.

[Oddness]

LOL. Yeah, it may not look like it, but I'm not trying to start a flame war. It's just that people from their experience with DX2 don't like the skills change. Understandable. All I'm doing here is to make people think about WHY things are done as they have been. Even DX1 fans have to admit that the skills were pretty redundant and as a Deus Ex game, the AUGs have to stay, while the skills have to go. It's still RPG in my book, it's just that DX1 almost gave you an illusion of skill points.

This was originally concieved to give people something to think about due to the amount of ONE-SIDED "lack of skills is lame" threads that have been recently popping up.

Skills weren't redundant at all. Even factoring out weapon skills, which were practically necessary if you wanted to shoot anything, abilities like lockpicking and bypassing were incredibly useful to train.

You could technically say the same about the augmentations, as you could play through the entire game and never use them and largely have the same experience. Their purpose was to enhance existing abilities and give you little advantages here and there, but certainly nothing that was crucial to the game.

This is where HR is a HUGE departure, as augs are now the central focus and one-and-only avenue for character development.

[Fluffis]

The skills were redundant huh? I beg to differ. In most of my playthroughs, the skills have been what I've relied on. Augs have always been second in importance, to me; things that gave me an edge, more than anything.
Most importantly, however, is that they, along with the augs, gave me a chance to make a well-rounded character. One that was MINE. I could "gimp" my augs, and still be a force to be reckoned with. Can this new system do that?

[TrickyVein]

...but augs are cool, and there are lots of them which cover a pretty comprehensive field of abilities it sounds like

it has also been mentioned that the player may very well play through the entire game without using augs at all. You are also forgetting to mention the ways in which one may upgrade his weaponry throughout the game along with his augs.

[Irate Iguana]

Even DX1 fans have to admit that the skills were pretty redundant and as a Deus Ex game, the AUGs have to stay, while the skills have to go. It's still RPG in my book, it's just that DX1 almost gave you an illusion of skill points.

This was originally concieved to give people something to think about due to the amount of ONE-SIDED "lack of skills is lame" threads that have been recently popping up.

We did agree that the skills overlapped. We also said that a certain degree of overlap was nice, but that not everything had to be redundant. We said that quite a while back. There have been some great posts on whether or not to reduce the granularity of the game or not and how for they should take it. However these posts were made quite a while ago.

[Human]

The skills were redundant. It's just that AUGs improved them and usually had to be activated. In HR some AUGs are passive (I think I read that somewhere), so they'll always be on without the use of Biotic energy (BTW, will those little blue things make an appearance in HR?). Besides, in DX1 AUGs were given a second seat to skills. HR will be different.

Are some of you saying that AquaLung and Swimming don't effectively do the same thing?

If you eliminate all of the redundant skills then all you have left is lockpicking/bypassing. It was obvious that the team had to get rid of them altogether (imagine all of the reviews: only 2 skills!?). My point is that AUGs can be made to cover everything. You really only need one or the other since they effectively do the same thing.

You still have a choice of what AUGs to install and what to upgrade, making a stealthy agent or a superhuman badass. Granted, you will lose some well-rounded capabilities... But that's hard-core RPG right? And it has also been said that some AUGs alter your appearance and thus your interaction among NPCs (a chain-gun loaded, sword spitting character will be hard pressed to talk to some people in a polite manner). That's even Harder-Core RPG. Multiple playthroughs will be needed to experience everything. A lot of people keep saying that no skills = no rpg. That's the main argument. I say that IF implemented correctly, no skills = more rpg.

Nice post Iguana (didn't see that before). Guess I'll do a search and see what happens.

[Jerion]

IMO, some people have gotten so used to equating the term 'RPG' with 'skills' that it's difficult for them to imagine, let alone accept one without the other. It's an old problem, that folks have a hard time conceptualizing things that they haven't previously known.

We did agree that the skills overlapped. We also said that a certain degree of overlap was nice, but that not everything had to be redundant. We said that quite a while back. There have been some great posts on whether or not to reduce the granularity of the game or not and how for they should take it. However these posts were made quite a while ago.

Yeah, from days, months and years gone by. There were some fantastic discussions along these lines going on in early 2009 and mid '08. Let's just try and forget about the part in between. :D

[Fluffis]

Are some of you saying that AquaLung and Swimming don't effectively do the same thing?

One aspect of them is the same: increased lung capacity. Swimming also adds swim speed. It may not seem like much, but the difference is efficiency.

[Jerion]

That's a minor difference that can be easily remedied by consolidating into one aug. Especially now that everything is mechanical. Out of two aspects, one is shared and one can be transferred to the other. Swimming is superfluous.

[Corpus]

They've stated some skills have become augs. Recoil stabilizers in his arms = alternative to weapon skills.

[ChrisVCB]

You know what would have been cooler than just all Augs. A mix of Augs and skills that overlap. Thats to say, that you'd have had the option to get better at, phew, I dunno, off the top of my head - hacking, through improving your skill. You'd have also had the option to upgrade your hacking aug. They could even be mutually exclusive.

Now, make the hacking Aug better than the skill, but with the downside of having to replace a chunk of your flesh. Maybe negative dialogue options, ontop of having to deform yourself. End result, a system where you can actually chose whether to submit yourself to the process of Augmentation, or do your best with what you were born with. For a game that is supposed to focus on the question of transhumanism, it's a little worrying that there is no alternative to getting augmented, and skills could have filled that gap. As it is, if you object to augmentation (as the game suggests you might), right now (from what we've heard) you can replace it with.....nothing.....you just miss out.

You could have gone completely Gunther and baddass mechanical, or you could have taken the bare minimum (arms, no choice) and used your human wits to get you through. Without that, you're pretty much forced through the gameplay into augmenting yourself further. Not a problem as such, but then you think that the theme of the game is meant to be transhumanism and the debate around that, yet you only get one practical path....

A real missed design decision that would tie in with the plot and the idea of choice.

PS. I've no idea how a skills/augs overlapping system would be worked out, mechanics wise, but i'm positive that it could have been done, to great effect.

[Jerion]

As it is, if you object to augmentation (as the game suggests you might), right now (from what we've heard) you can replace it with.....nothing.....you just miss out.

Miss out? Or be a MAN? http://www.emofaces.com/en/emoticons/e/evil-emoticon.gif

[Pinky_Powers]

I prefer to be a spider monkey.

http://www.primates.com/monkeys/spidermonkey.jpg

[ChrisVCB]

I hear Spider Monkeys never have to worry about Augmentation, skill systems, moral dillemmas of global proportions or shadowy government conspiracies.

[Pinky_Powers]

Sometimes they deal with all of those things when it concerns their bananas and mango supplies.

[Fluffis]

I'd say that a mech probably needs a skill system more than a nano, like JC. The augs are most likely controlled by his muscles and nerve system.

Anyway: anything that removes customization, brings a game further from being än RPG. This is a simple fact.

[mad_red]

The skills were a little wonky in relation to augs in the first game, but I don't see why they had to be scrapped entirely.

In Smith and Spector's IW post-mortem, they said that one of the things they overlooked when developing the game was the player's fantasy. IW tried to roll most of the previous skills into the augmentations, but it felt like their purposes were a lot narrower. They found that players liked the fantasy of building their characters from both skills and augs, like construction from the bottom-up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74
Gets to it around 3:40.

They admit that there was redundancy and overlap with the original system, which I agree on. Hence why I would have preferred a refinement of skills as opposed to gutting them out entirely.

I'm waiting to see if how exactly skills are going to work in HR, but I do pine for the old system. I like a bit of micromanagement in my RPG.

Thank you for that spot-on post.

Harvey Smith said it right there. Removing skills was a mistake even though the augs can do exactly the same things and more.

Adam should not be some kind of robot that only becomes better through mechanical upgrades. What he should be able to do is learn new techniques and improve the ones he already knows.

I wonder how Eidos Montreal will impress upon the player the process of becoming a more experienced and capable agent if there are no skills?

So long as all skills and augs are useful in somehow, it's fine by me if there is a bit of overlap. People that have trouble with redundant skills: You can just choose the one with the biggest coolness factor (swimming is for dorks, go with aqualung). There's no need to lose any sleep over it.

That said, I'm happy with more augs. Who wouldn't be? :D'


Now, make the hacking Aug better than the skill, but with the downside of having to replace a chunk of your flesh. Maybe negative dialogue options, ontop of having to deform yourself. End result, a system where you can actually chose whether to submit yourself to the process of Augmentation, or do your best with what you were born with. For a game that is supposed to focus on the question of transhumanism, it's a little worrying that there is no alternative to getting augmented, and skills could have filled that gap. As it is, if you object to augmentation (as the game suggests you might), right now (from what we've heard) you can replace it with.....nothing.....you just miss out.

A real missed design decision that would tie in with the plot and the idea of choice.

Whoa, now that is a creative and thought-provoking concept. I think this was done before in a sci-fi diablo clone, but it seems very at home in Deus Ex, even if it were just afterthought.

[Rindill the Red]

You know what would have been cooler than just all Augs. A mix of Augs and skills that overlap. Thats to say, that you'd have had the option to get better at, phew, I dunno, off the top of my head - hacking, through improving your skill. You'd have also had the option to upgrade your hacking aug. They could even be mutually exclusive.

Now, make the hacking Aug better than the skill, but with the downside of having to replace a chunk of your flesh. Maybe negative dialogue options, ontop of having to deform yourself. End result, a system where you can actually chose whether to submit yourself to the process of Augmentation, or do your best with what you were born with. For a game that is supposed to focus on the question of transhumanism, it's a little worrying that there is no alternative to getting augmented, and skills could have filled that gap. As it is, if you object to augmentation (as the game suggests you might), right now (from what we've heard) you can replace it with.....nothing.....you just miss out.

You could have gone completely Gunther and baddass mechanical, or you could have taken the bare minimum (arms, no choice) and used your human wits to get you through. Without that, you're pretty much forced through the gameplay into augmenting yourself further. Not a problem as such, but then you think that the theme of the game is meant to be transhumanism and the debate around that, yet you only get one practical path....

A real missed design decision that would tie in with the plot and the idea of choice.

PS. I've no idea how a skills/augs overlapping system would be worked out, mechanics wise, but i'm positive that it could have been done, to great effect.

I agree entirely. To have a path in the game that doesn't allow for RPG character development, like the less augs path, will be a detriment to the quality of the game. You lose a part of the "fantasy" as Harvey Smith put it.

For example, in Bioshock, I originally wanted to avoid splicing at all (I figured I would end up like the crazy people running around already), but then, it turns out that there is no alternative. The game forces you to augment... um, I mean splice. :whistle:

But, really, it would have been a more interesting and freeing game mechanic to allow the player to not splice and attempt to get past obstacles the good ole fashioned way, using human ingenuity and skills and separate technology, while still being able to experience the central RPG mechanic of character development. Instead of using telekinesis, why not have the player up his technical skill and be able to build some sort of device that works similarly (gravity gun from Half life 2?) I'm sure a flame thrower could melt the ice, that is if you had the skill and resources to make/operate one.

In a game series that was originally built on the concept of freedom of interaction with the gaming world and solid RPG roots, it seems that cutting out skills will be detrimental to the quality of the game, especially if Eidos is trying to make a true and worthy successor to the original.

[Fluffis]

It's gonna be interesting to see how (if?) they explain how we get from Kung Fu Grip A. Jensen and His XP-Enhanced Machinery, to The Great Günther and His Amazing, Sticking Actuators (Request for "Skul Gun" pending).

[TrickyVein]

It's been 40 years since the moon landing and NASA is seriously considering looking at a seven year gap in the US's capability to send one of its own into space. Like, seriously? WTF?

Adam has all of this hotshot tech now, but who knows what the mech aug program will be like come years hence. My point is, the course of imagined events in the foreseeable future is often non-linear. This point of tech advancement now does not mean that we'll have better tech in the future or even as good tech in the future.

[Fluffis]

It's been 40 years since the moon landing and NASA is seriously considering looking at a seven year gap in the US's capability to send one of its own into space. Like, seriously? WTF?

Adam has all of this hotshot tech now, but who knows what the mech aug program will be like come years hence. My point is, the course of imagined events in the foreseeable future is often non-linear. This point of tech advancement now does not mean that we'll have better tech in the future or even as good tech in the future.

Like I said: It's gonna be interesting.

[FrankCSIS]

Bioshcock is, in my opnion, the best comparison model to what they have proposed here. Draw your own conclusions, in accordance with your appreciation of Bio's RPG elements.

The one thing though, with this all-out aug/skill system, is that they've mentionned several times you could go on without augmenting yourself, as a moral/social choice of some significance. However if you do, all that's left of player development are the mods you put on your guns...

[TrickyVein]

^^ which needs some more explaining. It has also been mentioned that the player may choose to not kill anyone at all, which leaves the player with...what?

It's sort of a strange point to be making though, because its rather self-defeating isn't it? I mean, if you're consciously not taking the paths of augs or weapons, both of which are upgradable, and then complain about not being able to upgrade yourself, then what have you accomplished, really, in saying?

[FrankCSIS]

Well I guess it all goes back to the essence of RPG as discussed a year or two ago. I know K is in favor of upgrading the items and leaving the character upgrades behind, but I'm still having a hard time with this. It seems to me a balance can be achieved, between silly experience points being attributed to all sorts of "abilities", and just using the right tool for every situation without ever relying on your character itself. Even when overlapping, a sensible combination leaves for a more interesting multitude of possibilities.

Again, not saying it's a deal breaker. It all goes back to layers of complexity being removed, for no particularily good reason.

[TrickyVein]

because what is the player then without any of his gear if you can't upgrade the character - I see what you mean. Say we're faced with another situation like being in the MJ12 prison without any of our inventory and lowered health. Any item we pick up will not have any of the upgrades we've applied to it previously - our augs might be working so we can use them (granted if we've got the energy) but without augs or items, you're at square one again.

Might make the game harder without all of those character upgrades to health, agility and the like along the way (i'm just using those as examples)

[Jerion]

A layer of complexity is removed, but it's a *mostly* superfluous one the way I see it.

because what is the player then without any of his gear if you can't upgrade the character

The player...is you.

This does bring up an interesting point though: What do you have left if you choose to forgo further augmentation? Have missions and levels been designed to account for a non-auged Adam? Character development sans augmentation would be (AFAWK) restricted to weapons. Interesting. A "no augs" run could become a thing with this game, much like "no kills" or "minicrossbow only" runs in the original.

[FrankCSIS]

The player...is you.

I know where you're coming from, but the problem is that in games we generally have no way to translate what we've learned into our character's action. Sure we get better at senaking every time we do it in the game, and I guess we get better at the hacking mini-game by hacking more, but a lot of the knowledge we develop can't be directly applied, simply because the complexity of developing such a game mechanic would be immense. Which is why certain character skills are a good tradeoff.

[Pinky_Powers]

Sure we get better at senaking...

I don't know what that is, but it chills me to the bone.

[FrankCSIS]

Senaking, man! The one thing we do in the cover of darkness when no one is looking.

[TrickyVein]

go on...I'm listening

[FrankCSIS]

Don't...don't make me say it.

Please.

[Pinky_Powers]

I usually use a hula hoop and a mighty sub-woofer for my senaking. And there's often a billygoat on-hand to bare witness.

[Rindill the Red]

... And there's often a billygoat on-hand to bare witness.

My billygoat is usually dressed.:hmm:

[ShadowXOR]

Here's the thing. If augs are like this:

Reflex Dampener: Lowers gun recoil. Level 2: Lowers recoil more and faster reloading, etc.

Then it's basically a skill and just called an aug. We pick what to put our experience in, so it seems like skills plus augs at the same time but better than IW as long as they have a lot of them.

In the recent interview they try to claim between augs and skills nothing was cut.

In invisible war a lot was cut. So if they're telling the truth we're in good shape.

[Pinky_Powers]

Then it's basically a skill and just called an aug. We pick what to put our experience in, so it seems like skills plus augs at the same time but better than IW as long as they have a lot of them.

There's only three.

[ShadowXOR]

There's only three.

Only three what? I don't know what you're talking about...

[Pinky_Powers]

You're probably better off.

[Jerion]

You're probably better off.

He's probably better on. You humans need to keep your power flowing! Isn't that how you....never mind.

[TrickyVein]

Three: the holy trinity, part of that same judeo-christian belief where Adam gets his name; the points of a pyramid which appears on the US dollar and alludes to the Illuminati; the ordered position of the Earth in the solar system with regards to Sol; the symbolism here is huge.

[Jerion]

Three: the holy trinity, part of that same judeo-christian belief where Adam gets his name; the points of a pyramid which appears on the US dollar and alludes to the Illuminati; the ordered position of the Earth in the solar system with regards to Sol; the symbolism here is huge.

Or he's talking about the trinity of community management here...Me, René........Romeo. :rasp:

[FrankCSIS]

Which of you is the holy ghost?

Oh wait, I guess this one is obvious :p

[Fluffis]

Then it's basically a skill and just called an aug. We pick what to put our experience in, so it seems like skills plus augs at the same time but better than IW as long as they have a lot of them.


If the aug system is such that a specific aug excludes another (very probable) then, no it's not.

That is actually my main gripe with augs replacing skills: If the system is the same as in DX and IW (modular, and mutually exclusive), then the weakness of the system, compared to one with skills, shows. The skill system in DX was only limited by the amount of XP you accumulated. Nothing was mutually exclusive; aqualung and swimming didn't exclude each other. Neither did Environmental Training usage of a hazmat and Environmental Resistance. Also, the augs and skills complemented each other. They stacked, when applicable.

[Jerion]

If the aug system is such that a specific aug excludes another (very probable) then, no it's not.

That is actually my main gripe with augs replacing skills: If the system is the same as in DX and IW (modular, and mutually exclusive), then the weakness of the system, compared to one with skills, shows. The skill system in DX was only limited by the amount of XP you accumulated. Nothing was mutually exclusive. Also, the augs and skills complemented each other. They stacked, when applicable.

It wasn't mutually exclusive but there was a fair amount of unalterable and decisive choice to be had, since there weren't enough skill points in the game to max out everything.

[TrickyVein]

and it took some real planning to max out your rifle or pistol skills with that 40000000000 or so point penalty to become a Master

[Fluffis]

It wasn't mutually exclusive but there was a fair amount of unalterable and decisive choice to be had, since there weren't enough skill points in the game to max out everything.

and it took some real planning to max out your rifle or pistol skills with that 40000000000 or so point penalty to become a Master

Of course, but you didn't need to actually take all skills to "Master" either. Most skills performed admirably at "Advanced", and some you could make do with at "Trained" or even "Untrained" (notably "Demolition").

But if these things are going to be "auged", then you may have to choose between them. It's one or the other (no low-level combination).

Or even worse: you may be a master at them by default (I just heard the last vestiges of DX as an RPG flushed down the toilet... how about you?).

[Jerion]

Or even worse: you may be a master at them by default (I just heard the last vestiges of DX as an RPG flushed down the toilet... how about you?).

No, There are different levels of augs.

[Fluffis]

No, There are different levels of augs.

Yeah, I know. It was clumsily phrased. I just meant those skills that are not connected to an aug. I.E. those that we'll just be able to perform perfectly by default. (Edit: I don't know, of course, but I'll bet a hefty sum that these include melee and shooting, for instance.)

[Jerion]

Yeah, I know. It was clumsily phrased. I just meant those skills that are not connected to an aug. I.E. those that we'll just be able to perform perfectly by default. (Edit: I don't know, of course, but I'll bet a hefty sum that these include melee and shooting, for instance.)

Shooting in HR is player controlled, so if you're a good shot in games, you'll be doing it perfectly or nearly so by default. All it comes to there, really.

[Fluffis]

Shooting in HR is player controlled, so if you're a good shot in games, you'll be doing it perfectly or nearly so by default. All it comes to there, really.

Exactly! Every little thing that is removed from the player's customization, pushes the game a bit further away from being an RPG. Imagine Adam picking up a particular weapon for the first time ever, and getting wall-to-wall headshots with it...

I don't know... I'm just sad to see one of the greatest computer RPGs of all time losing its way like this. (First IW, now this.)

Edit: Don't get me wrong, this is an improvement over IW, but still... I had such hopes for it.

[mad_red]

A layer of complexity is removed, but it's a *mostly* superfluous one the way I see it.

The player...is you.

This does bring up an interesting point though: What do you have left if you choose to forgo further augmentation? Have missions and levels been designed to account for a non-auged Adam? Character development sans augmentation would be (AFAWK) restricted to weapons. Interesting. A "no augs" run could become a thing with this game, much like "no kills" or "minicrossbow only" runs in the original.

It's like that old saying - you don't know how much you appreciate something until it's gone. With all this discussion going here, it would be improbably awesome if there were different versions to playtest, with and without skills, etc. etc. and then when you settle on one or the other, you find yourself wanting to switch back post-release. IT NEVER ENDS! :nut:

BTW. Did you mean most skills DX1 skills were superfluous, or that a skill system in general is mostly superfluous? 'Cause I'd agree with the former and not so much with the latter.