Jacobs Shadow/Overall Detail...

[biofuel]

Longtime....

So how many of you would like the great attention to detail to shine out in the latest instalment of the Deus Ex Universe. I for one would appreciate more Jacob's Shadow at the VERY least; ideally the game will be littered with cool well written and some mysterious books, emails and countless other mediums that tie in world and the timeline together on whatever scale that may be.

Also emails and other ways of depth and colour and spice should not be ignored, and need to be hugely embellished upon in my opinion Deus Ex is in part a walking encyclopedia of intrigue, backstory and cyber immersion-tie in all through detail and compelling writing by the designers a la the original Deus Ex

[Sabretooth]

C'mon, who wouldn't want all that? :p All that attention to detail and story is what *made* Deus Ex, for me at least.

I don't know about Jacob's Shadow, though. No need to drag it in from Deus Ex, I'd rather they came up with new books more pertinent to the current theme and world. Besides, I'd imagine Jacob's Shadow had been recently released, what with it being very popular in Deus Ex.

[MaxxQ1]

C'mon, who wouldn't want all that? :p All that attention to detail and story is what *made* Deus Ex, for me at least.

I don't know about Jacob's Shadow, though. No need to drag it in from Deus Ex, I'd rather they came up with new books more pertinent to the current theme and world. Besides, I'd imagine Jacob's Shadow had been recently released, what with it being very popular in Deus Ex.

That makes sense. Although... Sheldon Pacotti "wrote" Jacob's Shadow, and he *is* a story consultant on DXHR, so who's to say he won't make a contribution or two? Not necessarily additional Jacob's Shadow chapters, but maybe something along the same lines.

That could be fun.

[minus0ne]

It wouldn't be Deus Ex without in-game books (along with newspapers, emails, notes, magazines etc.) and I wouldn't mind a couple more bits of Jacob's Shadow. I see no reason not to introduce even more in-game literature of all sorts, well, apart from the time it takes to write and produce them, of course (well, the fictive, ie non-existing ones, at least :p).

Although I have to say it's one of the most immersive elements and defining features of Deus Ex, so I think all time spent writing and making these is well spent. They could even introduce whole books (existing ones), that could take some storylines and 'quests' to the next level of immersion, having to read a chapter of Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? or Hardboiled Wonderland and The End of The World to get a clue in order to progress through the game :D Of course there's plenty to choose from in the public domain, as well.

[Blade_hunter]

As long as it stays non essential, I don't see any problem with this particular book or any other sci fi litterature.
I think that's part of the things that mades the story deep and the universe deep.
I don't vote because there is only the noob option and a yes/no.

[MaxxQ1]

It wouldn't be Deus Ex without in-game books (along with newspapers, emails, notes, magazines etc.) and I wouldn't mind a couple more bits of Jacob's Shadow. I see no reason not to introduce even more in-game literature of all sorts, well, apart from the time it takes to write and produce them, of course (well, the fictive, ie non-existing ones, at least :p).

Although I have to say it's one of the most immersive elements and defining features of Deus Ex, so I think all time spent writing and making these is well spent. They could even introduce whole books (existing ones), that could take some storylines and 'quests' to the next level of immersion, having to read a chapter of Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? or Hardboiled Wonderland and The End of The World to get a clue in order to progress through the game :D Of course there's plenty to choose from in the public domain, as well.

The problem with that is if the story you're lifting chapters from is still under copyright or not. "The Man Who Was Thursday" is public domain, so could be used freely in the game. I don't know the status of those books you mentioned, but I'd be willing to bet that "Androids" and "Neuromancer" are still under copyright, which means that EM would need to either get permission, or pay outright to use them.

Don't quote me on this, but I think current copyright law is 50 years from date of publication, and the author or his/her family have the option to extend that.

Looked it up on Wiki:

Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. These rights can be licensed, transferred and/or assigned. Copyright lasts for a certain time period after which the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to a wide range of works that are substantive and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks.

The Statute of Anne 1709, full title "An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned", is now seen as the origin of copyright law.[1]

Copyright has been internationally standardized, lasting between fifty and one hundred years from the author's death, or a shorter period for anonymous or corporate authorship. Generally, copyright is enforced as a civil matter, though some jurisdictions do apply criminal sanctions.

That last paragraph, is pertinent to what I was saying above. I don't think P.K. Dick has been dead for more than 50 years yet, and I'm pretty sure Gibson is still around.

[BlazeL]

Sheldon Pacotti "wrote" Jacob's Shadow, and he *is* a story consultant on DXHR, so who's to say he won't make a contribution or two?

That's incorrect, Chris Todd is the author of Jacob's Shadow, as he wrote nearly all in game text (newspapers, datacubes etc.). More about it can be found here (http://www.7crows.com/archives/2000/01/entry_39.html). 3 writers worked on DX, and Sheldon Pacotti was hired later in the development cycle and his main responsibility was the dialog writing if i remember correctly. He was the lead writer only for IW.

I wouldn't mind one or two chapters recycled from Jacob's Shadow, but i really don't want them to mess with it more than that. Other books and stuff are essential though, and it would be nice to see some new fictive books as well.

[MaxxQ1]

That's incorrect, Chris Todd is the author of Jacob's Shadow, as he wrote nearly all in game text (newspapers, datacubes etc.). More about it can be found here (http://www.7crows.com/archives/2000/01/entry_39.html). 3 writers worked on DX, and Sheldon Pacotti was hired later in the development cycle and his main responsibility was the dialog writing if i remember correctly. He was the lead writer only for IW.

I wouldn't mind one or two chapters recycled from Jacob's Shadow, but i really don't want them to mess with it more than that. Other books and stuff are essential though, and it would be nice to see some new fictive books as well.

I stand (sit) corrected.

[BlazeL]

I stand (sit) corrected.

Sorry, i hope i wasn't offensive.


One more thing about why i think that more chapters from Jacob's Shadow would be a bit unfortunate. That book is an in-world reflection of the game itself (and of course a bit of the actual situations as well). They wanted to have something similar in IW. But that was another game and I think that's why they didn't create more Jacob's Shadow chapters for it, but they included one from another book, Jacob's War, that is more likely a sequel to JS.
Following this logic, we should see a JS prequel in HR. But IMHO, that would be very bizarre. Because if it wants to reflect to DX:HR properly, it should be set as a prequel to JS, meanwhile it's more likely that JS hasn't been written yet in the time of HR. Of course they can set it up as a book in 'the Jacob series' that came before JS, but with that, the reflection to the game would be lost.

All in all, as a pessimist i guess that this game will mess up at least a bit of the DX timeline and continuity, but even so something like JS prequel would be very crude, moreover i think Jacob's Shadow belongs uniquely to DX, i would just prefer them to leave Jacob alone.

Also, i don't know if i would like to see more from Jacob's Shadow, even if it's from Todd. Half of its miracle is coming from the fact that you can read the chapters in every random sequence, and you still grasp the story; it operates with your imagination and lets itself open to interpretation. A full blown novel would end this effect, and i just don't know if i could accept more chapters as canonic that may be contradicting my interpretation of the story based on the little we know about it. [To be honest, part of me wants more, but my rational side knows that more likely i would be just very disappointed by it.]

I would rather encourage the devs to come up with something new on this field, but they don't listen to us anyway, so, i'm just shutting up for now.

[MaxxQ1]

Sorry, i hope i wasn't offensive.

No offense taken. You were right, I was wrong. Why should I get offended at that?

One more thing about why i think that more chapters from Jacob's Shadow would be a bit unfortunate. That book is an in-world reflection of the game itself (and of course a bit of the actual situations as well).

Regarding this bit, I agree. Jacob's Shadow was written specifically to reflect the things you are going through at any given time in DX.

However, that doesn't preclude the devs from doing something similar with a completely different "story".

[jamhaw]

Personally I would want another book in the Jacob series, Invisible War had a sequel to Jacob's Shadow named Jacob's War did it not?

[minus0ne]

The problem with that is if the story you're lifting chapters from is still under copyright or not. "The Man Who Was Thursday" is public domain, so could be used freely in the game. I don't know the status of those books you mentioned, but I'd be willing to bet that "Androids" and "Neuromancer" are still under copyright, which means that EM would need to either get permission, or pay outright to use them.

Don't quote me on this, but I think current copyright law is 50 years from date of publication, and the author or his/her family have the option to extend that.

Looked it up on Wiki:

That last paragraph, is pertinent to what I was saying above. I don't think P.K. Dick has been dead for more than 50 years yet, and I'm pretty sure Gibson is still around.
Well it doesn't have to be a problem: EM could simply license those books that aren't yet in the public domain (most publishers seem to have no problem with Amazon providing entire chapters of books with their "Look Inside"-feature, granted that probably took a lot of negotiating). I don't see why authors such as Gibson, Dick, Haruki Murakami or their publishers would object to having a few chapters in-game as well as some free publicity (they probably would object to having the entire book in there - but that's hardly necessary).

Just because it hasn't been done before (afaik?) doesn't mean it wouldn't be great ;) These stories/books can do (and have done) a lot worse than make a miniature appearance in a DX-game.

Otherwise, there's plenty in the public domain and plenty of fictive stuff they could enrich and flesh-out the DX3-universe with.

[MaxxQ1]

Well it doesn't have to be a problem: EM could simply license those books that aren't yet in the public domain (most publishers seem to have no problem with Amazon providing entire chapters of books with their "Look Inside"-feature, granted that probably took a lot of negotiating). I don't see why authors such as Gibson, Dick, Haruki Murakami or their publishers would object to having a few chapters in-game as well as some free publicity (they probably would object to having the entire book in there - but that's hardly necessary).

Just because it hasn't been done before (afaik?) doesn't mean it wouldn't be great ;) These stories/books can do (and have done) a lot worse than make a miniature appearance in a DX-game.

Otherwise, there's plenty in the public domain and plenty of fictive stuff they could enrich and flesh-out the DX3-universe with.

What you say has merit, except I wonder if EM has the money to purchase the licensing. Even if it's just a few chapters, I doubt it would be just a few hundred dollars (or pounds, euros, rubles, sheckles, or whatever).

On top of that, is it too late in game development to add that stuff in, or is adding it a fairly simple task that would only take a few man-hours? I genuinely don't know.

As for the Amazon comment, I'd think that both Amazon and the publishers/authors count on somewhat higher sales to come from giving a little preview. I can say from experience that seeing a few chapters in a how-to book convinced me to buy it over a couple other similar books. Still, I imagine it's still not exactly cheap for them to do that. <shrug> I could be wrong though...

[minus0ne]

What you say has merit, except I wonder if EM has the money to purchase the licensing. Even if it's just a few chapters, I doubt it would be just a few hundred dollars (or pounds, euros, rubles, sheckles, or whatever).

On top of that, is it too late in game development to add that stuff in, or is adding it a fairly simple task that would only take a few man-hours? I genuinely don't know.
Well, I know from experience that licensing a book isn't as costly as you might think. Ironically, the worse a book is (like Dan Brown drivel) the more it'll cost to license. Also, keep in mind that DX3 is by no means a low-budget game, and with Square Enix behind the scenes, a couple thousand dollars for licensing books (or chapters) could be considered money well spent. The only real trouble isn't financial but whether or not the author or the guardians of his works allow such use of these fictions.

Other than that it should be a relative breeze to add them into the game, I would think.
As for the Amazon comment, I'd think that both Amazon and the publishers/authors count on somewhat higher sales to come from giving a little preview. I can say from experience that seeing a few chapters in a how-to book convinced me to buy it over a couple other similar books. Still, I imagine it's still not exactly cheap for them to do that. <shrug> I could be wrong though...
Likewise, but why shouldn't this hold true for an in-game chapter of Hardboiled Wonderland (http://www.amazon.com/Hardboiled-Wonderland-World-Haruki-Murakami/dp/0099448785/), for example. What better advertisement for a book which is thematically somewhat close to Deus Ex, GitS and Blade Runner already?

Of course that's not the point, but it may be incentive for authors to go beyond just Amazon's "Look Inside" feature in promoting their books, while at the same time fleshing out the DX3 universe, and possibly entice players to buy and read those books for real.

I know it's part possibility and partly wishful thinking, but other than that, why not? On the other hand, there might simply be enough fictive DX literature and real literature in the public domain they can use, as they did in the first game.