How should Garrett look in Thief 4?

[xAcerbusx]

Do you prefer the more flowy, spectral look that Garrett had in Thief 1, Gold, and 2? Or are you one of the people that digs his more streamlined, athletic look from Thief: Deadly Shadows?

Now, before anyone gets cranky and starts penning an essay about why "we shouldn't see Garrett at all because the game should be entirely in first person!" bear in mind that whether Thief 4 is in first-person, third-person, or no-person... Garrett will be in promo art and probably even on the game's case (if past games are any indication). So the 'first vs. third' debate doesn't really have a place, here.

So how would you prefer Eidos Montreal depicted the master thief (assuming he will carry on as protagonist of the series)?

[Pieter888]

One of the awesome design choices in thief is how Garrett's face always keeps changing throughout the game. One extreme example is how Garrett's face looked like in TDS when in-game, and how it looked like in the last cut-scene of TDS. The in-game-Garrett looked like he could be the father of final-cut-scene-Garrett.
I like this design choice, it adds to the mystery around Garrett.

I can't really answer your poll because of that, Garrett keeps changing, not only his face but also his body (clothes). Sometimes he looks really tall and athletic. While other times he looks like he wouldn't last more than 5 seconds against a guard.

I like EM to continue this trend and keep Garrett a mystery even though he might be the main character of the game.

[kabatta]

I say he only needs his utility belt and a cape. Nothing more, nothing less.

[glyph07]

Hm...that's a difficult one. I haven't really liked any of the Garrett images in any cut scene actually, or at least not when his face is shown almost clearly (i.e. end of TDS). So, to me, it would be better to keep him always half hidden.

The tricky thing, in fact, as far as the visualisation of the character is concerned, is not really linked to the whole figure, but to the face. I dunno...can Caltus sketch few Garrett faces? Just to see how he sees him. :)

[Viktoria]

Good new poll thread, xAcerbusx.

Good idea, glyph07. Please send a PM to caltus forthwith, as a matter of dire urgency!

[Death24701]

I don't know about you, but I think he should have a new "uniform" (can I say that?) entirely. This is mostly because of the fact that Thief 4 will take place in a different time period. In that time, Garrett may have been struck by the fashion god, and they stole his clothes and ability to make anything else that looks exactly like his old ones, and it's up to the master thief, clad in a banana suit, to reclaim his old leathers.
Now seriously, the real reason why I think he should have a new design style is most likely because Garrett had mellowed out. Why do I say this you ask? Well, this is mostly because he actually smiles in the final scene, when he's repeating Artemus' words. The reason this would have anything at all to do with his design sense is that he may wear some new things to pay homage to Artemus, it's evident that when Garrett smiles it shows that he really trusted Artemus so there's no reason why he shouldn't.
Now for what that object is is a different story.

[jtr7]

:nut:






The clothing will look different, certainly, but as long as he doesn't look like an action hero, but as a guy dressed for not being seen and for staying alive in crazy situations--protective, insulative, not combative--where he's not intentionally going into battle, and as long as his clothing has roots in the practicalities of his Keeper days, I'll be fine with it. He should not appear to be showing off or giving off a vibe, but appear indistinct, not giving away his profession. His clean masterful thefts are his trademark, and he should not display his powers, skills, accomplishments on his being. His actions should not be showy, since no one is supposed to be looking, and they should be strictly practical. He has a laziness about him, where anything that is not directly related to his profession is not as important, and only those things that get the job done are where you will find discipline. The City experiences four seasons, and is a coastal metropolis, with much moisture and coolness, and so his clothing should reflect that reasonably. The older titles are the usual starting point, and TDS didn't make sense--except for being less heavy and cumbersome, and if it had been summer, but the exposed arms were odd for his profession.

I'd like to know what's going on with his scar, too. Viki didn't give it to him, although his TDS scar made it seem related to his mech-eye and how he got it. In T2, the vertical scar is well-below his eye, and does not reach or go above his eye, and the top of the scar points toward the outer corner of his eye. Again, I'd like continuity, and if he has a scar on his cheek, it should not be implied that it has anything to do with his mech-eye or eye getting plucked out. Please separate the scar from the incident involving his eye.

[Hypevosa]

I liked the more melt into shadows look that he had for the originals. In the new one I just felt he looked too thuggy... I felt he looked more assassin-y.

[kin]

How should Garrett look in Thief 4?
Garrett should not look at all.
Remember thief the metal age box "The greatest thief the world has NEVER seen"?
Keeping it that way you got free mystery added to the game.

[Palmberg]

Garrett should not look at all.
Remember thief the metal age box "The greatest thief the world has NEVER seen"?
Keeping it that way you got free mystery added to the game.


Well, another thing we see on the box is Garrett so yeah...

I'd say have him look similiar to what he did on the TDP box.

[jtr7]

Yeah. I don't know if there's some sort of union rules that require a game developer to work up a whole bunch of new concept art when none of the games' in-game designs attained the depth of the original concept art (past the Palmer stage), and now it finally can. Start here, ignore TDS and ACII:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_statue04xd2.png (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view&current=statue04xd2.png)

[xAcerbusx]

Yeah. I don't know if there's some sort of union rules that require a game developer to work up a whole bunch of new concept art when none of the games' in-game designs attained the depth of the original concept art (past the Palmer stage), and now it finally can. Start here, ignore TDS and ACII:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_statue04xd2.png (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view&current=statue04xd2.png)

I'm with you on that one.

Though, now that game engines can actually handle it, it would be great to see a nice cape or cloak, too.

[Loup]

Yeah. I don't know if there's some sort of union rules that require a game developer to work up a whole bunch of new concept art when none of the games' in-game designs attained the depth of the original concept art (past the Palmer stage), and now it finally can. Start here, ignore TDS and ACII:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_statue04xd2.png (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view&current=statue04xd2.png)

This is quite good. But the pauldrons should go. Anyone else noticed that it is almost identical with the design from the videos with Garrett and Constantine discussing the eye?
I'd really like a simple less overdesigned approach to Garrett. He supposed to not draw attention.
I've never understood Ass-creed's overdone outfits. Altair and Ezio stands out. And they stands out A LOT. But I guess it is all about pleasing the "kewl"-crowd.

Do you want a cape which reaches to your elbows or hip? (kind of like a poncho)
Or did you mean a cloak?
http://www.havingalarp.com/Medium_Wool_Cloak.gif

The cloak looks really great, but is quite impractical when it comes to sneaking. Sure it hides the shape of the wearer, but it is also a huge garment. A multi piece cloak is quite a lot of cloth and a two piece cloak is about 3 meters of cloth, some times more. It quite limiting when moving about. Just the thought of climbing or jumping a gap makes me nervous. When walking down a slope you need to lift a few inches or else you'll step on it. IMO it is great to see Garrett wearing one in the cutscenes but not on a mission.

[jtr7]

Agreed. :)

Garrett's cloak should be as simple and practical as a Keeper cloak would be, with environment in mind. The cloak should go wherever his bag of loot and all his equipment goes when he is navigating terrain that would inhibit or prohibit movement if he had all that stuff on him.



Oh, and since it's eluded many in the past, I trust the devs know what I mean when I say "start here", and "look to the roots", even if any one here doesn't. I mean, that is the base, and changes should grow from it, hearken to it, even though the end result won't look like it.

[glyph07]

Please send a PM to caltus forthwith, as a matter of dire urgency!

Done it! :D

[xAcerbusx]

Something that melds the more streamlined "lighter" approach of DS with the more appartitious look of Garrett from TDP and TMA would be great. Here's an unfinished drawing from the upcoming Thief comic book I'm working on to give you an idea of what I'd like to see:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/XAcerbusX/Garrett-concept.jpg

Not exactly like that (this is more leaning toward The Metal Age, because that's when the comic takes place) but I figured since I haven't inked in the details in the background, this would be the best opportunity to have the character design stand out.

One bit I am absolutely adamant about are those button-up bracer / glove things that Garrett always wears.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/XAcerbusX/Tater-salad.jpg

They are quintessentially Thief and have to stay. It's not just him, either, but lots of different guards in TDP and TMA wear them. It's just got to stay.

[windwalker]

Hello all;

Been a long time no see, I just wanted to say that last week we made some trial shots with my friends camera. We couldn't find a suitable ruin-like place, but anyway, I have a cloak my gf bought to me as a present. It's black, extremely long to fit my needs (me 191 cm.) so...

Well, it does not prevent me from running or jumping, but this requires some getting used to. One misstep and you will be rolling on the ground, damaging the fabric of the cape too. The hood - is a nightmare. You either can't see anything or you let it fall back and in that case it has no use. However, I just noted that a cape actually does not hinder my hands and locomotor skills "as much as" I feared it would. I tried some sword-dancing and runnind around and it was fine enough.

The video file is still unformatted so it's like 1.5 gb. I believe I will be able to show at least some basic stuff soon, though. Any idea where shall I post them to? to youtube?

[glyph07]

That's interesting. I'd love to see the video. I think that youtube could fit the bill. Let us know when u've posted it. Maybe, though, as far as the clothing is concerned, a certain latitude should be given to the designers when considering the realism of the fabric movements.

[Yaphy]

As long as he wear a cloak with a hood its okey for me. Under the cloak he can have dark clothes with belts of metal and lether that holds the flashbombs, dagger/sword, mines etc. The hood should cover parts of his face. It would be cool if yo could see Garrett in a mirror in-game and just see the jaw, mouth and the tip of the nose. I actually think that Garrett should wear a cloak in-game instead of that wierd suit he had in TDS. With the machines of today it shouldnt even be a problem making it dynamic.

The guards would get pwn3d by his pure awesomeness!

[esme]

if cloaks were good for stealth they'd be standard issue in the armed forces, they get caught on things, guards can stand on them, they interfere with movement, yes they hide a multitude of sins but they bring their own disadvantages, they look great in cartoons though

he needs the steampunk equivalent of a ghillie suit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillie_suit) which is what I envisaged the keepers as wearing when they ventured outside, a mix of greens and browns designed to break up the shape, with a hood to put the face in shadow and extensions or gloves to cover any exposed flesh, nothing shiny, with room for weapons in large pockets concealed around the suit, possibly with reversible sections with a more street normal material on the reverse

so as Edna Mode says "nodahlingnocapestoofussydahling remember thunderhead ?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THYkMUD_JOE#t=1m50s)

[Yohaun]

I think he should look like the Garrett from the Thief II boxart.

[Hypevosa]

I expect with all his gear Garrett's bandoliered and pocketed to high hell.

And hoods have always stayed in place on protagonists while running for the sake of it being cool and convenient. I suspect if you wanted one to stay up, it might need a weighted tip kinda like the leather job at the tip of Ezio/Altair's cowl in AC. Or a weight of extra cloth at the front where the hole is, either way. If you can, try just having 2 kitchen magnets clamped together at the tip of the hood and see if it keeps it forward, though I don't know how one would test the extra cloth thing if one has no skills at sewing.

[Platinumoxicity]

This was supposed to be in a Thief4 pic I never finished. I thought that since Garrett wore blue in T1, black in T2 (cover art) and whatever the taff it was in TDS, Garrett would wear brownish-gray in T4. And he'd have some stubble on his chin since it's winter. Oh yeah, since apart from the end cutscene of T1 we have only seen snow in FMs it would be high time to see some taffin' snow wouldn't it? :D
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/23a00garrr.png

[jtr7]

How should Garrett look in T4? As well as the usual left/right and front/back, there needs to be an unusual emphasis on up/down. Up/down searching and navigating needs to be at a higher percentage than most games (not including gameplay involving aircraft). And as has been said, no one should look at him twice when he's just walking the streets. If he's anywhere other than on a pedestrian path, then he should get a double-take, if he's not one with the shadows, only because he shouldn't be there, not because he looks like a criminal or part of an elite faction, a government goon, a mercenary, part of the Wardens' mafioso, a man who has alliances with the Thieves' Guild, etc. Non-descript is what he needs to be. At most, he could appear to be a ranger, hunter, exterminator of vermin, but humbly so, not wearing his profession like a badge, not reveling in getting a reaction from anybody, rather seeking no reaction from anybody.

[Hypevosa]

I'd also like people to not be able to mug people anymore by exposing myself. Brandishing a sword should result in a scream and a jaunt through the park.

Wow that can be very easily misconstrued...

[xAcerbusx]

Oh yeah, since apart from the end cutscene of T1 we have only seen snow in FMs it would be high time to see some taffin' snow wouldn't it? :D
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/23a00garrr.png

#1 - Awesome picture. If that's unfinished, I say finish it.

#2 - Totally agree about snow. It would be great to see in Thief 4. Might even add a new "try not to slip and break your neck" dynamic to rooftop infiltration on certain missions, too. One of the reasons I love the first CoSaS mission so much is the snow and those nice little foggy rings around the lamplights from the resultant cold. Very cool.

At most, he could appear to be a ranger, hunter, exterminator of vermin, but humbly so, not wearing his profession like a badge, not reveling in getting a reaction from anybody, rather seeking no reaction from anybody.

Yes and no.

I mean, ideally, no one sees him at all. When he's 'on the job', he could dress up in a Big Bird costume and it wouldn't ultimately matter much.
Judging by Garrett's outfit in The Dark Project when he's having a drink with Constantine, when he isn't doing the thieving thing, he dresses like any average guy in The City would.

[Platinumoxicity]

I mean, ideally, no one sees him at all. When he's 'on the job', he could dress up in a Big Bird costume and it wouldn't ultimately matter much.
Judging by Garrett's outfit in The Dark Project when he's having a drink with Constantine, when he isn't doing the thieving thing, he dresses like any average guy in The City would.

That's right. If I was Garrett I'd just wear normal clothes and act casually during the day, so I can blend in the crowd and go about my daily business. During the day Garrett can do whatever a normal person does, goes to the market to get some food, goes to hardware dealers to scout for new stuff that he could use, and goes to public places to listen in on latest news. He could also check out locations for jobs. The City district checkpoints are open during the day so there aren't any City Watch checking the id of every person going through, like after the curfew. Garrett has zero chance of getting caught during the day as long as he just acts normal. Nobody knows what he looks like (except maybe some criminals) so he doesn't even have to wear that suspicious-looking hood all day long.

[jtr7]

Lotsa people wear hoods, normally, in The City, so no worries about standing out, especially if the weather is a bit rude.

[esme]

I really didn't like the muggings in TDS

[jtr7]

Me neither. :(

[glyph07]

That's right. If I was Garrett I'd just wear normal clothes and act casually during the day, so I can blend in the crowd and go about my daily business. During the day Garrett can do whatever a normal person does, goes to the market to get some food, goes to hardware dealers to scout for new stuff that he could use, and goes to public places to listen in on latest news. He could also check out locations for jobs. The City district checkpoints are open during the day so there aren't any City Watch checking the id of every person going through, like after the curfew. Garrett has zero chance of getting caught during the day as long as he just acts normal. Nobody knows what he looks like (except maybe some criminals) so he doesn't even have to wear that suspicious-looking hood all day long.

But look, how many people with a mechanical eye do u think there are besides Garrett? How many people he met face to face and how many chances there are that they kept an absolute silence about his appearance?

Maybe at the beginning of his activity in TDP he could have gone around the City wihtout being recognised just by acting normally, but that specific aspect of him is so rare and odd that rumors about a guy like this would spread. For sure the Hammerites know who he is, one rumor after another and a lot of people would start soon wondering. What make u think that having only "some criminal" know what Garrett looks like would keep him safe from others to know it too? Criminal and not criminal societies are not limited but some sort of barrier which make them isolated one from the other.

No I don't think that Garrett would be totally free to roam in daylight around the City with no hood or cover whatever.

[cheater_1]

You all MAKE assumptions. You ASSume that Garrett will be the lead character. Chances are he will NOT. Play TDS over again, people. His story is at an END. Chances are a FEMALE will be the lead character.

But, in a NORMAL response to the question, I do not think there should be ANY changes because it's a FIRST PERSON game. We never ever ever ever see Garrett. That's the nature of first person.

Pssssst, hey vikky.......how'd I do?

[Hypevosa]

The story arch of the keepers is the only story arch that has ended. Garrett lives, Garrett robs, Garrett still pisses people off. It wouldn't be too difficult for anyone with creative faculty to make a good story about the aftermath. Remember, all things are not sorted out at the end of TDS, there's alot of loose ends as to what happened to those left in the keeper order, the whereabouts of The Eye, and a dozen other things. With even very little imagination one can still create a good story that Garrett is still part of, it just can't involve Glyphs anymore, though it could still involve the ex-keepers themselves.

[windwalker]

Here is what the cape looks like. Or what I look like in it.

The problem is, I am deep in work and things do not look like they are going to settle down in the soon future.

Just ignore the white and light blue shirt I wear. And the glasses. Ok, I know I do not look like Garret at all!

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz25/windwalkerranger/caped.png

And another one, from side. Look at me posing if I was ... something else.

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz25/windwalkerranger/DSCF0283.jpg

By the way, is it possible to resize these so that they are... less disturbing? I do not want to fill a persons screen to such an extend.

[jtr7]

Whatever you used to paint out the background in the first picture should have an image size editor. If you have MS Picture Manager or MS Paint, you can resize, if you don't have a fancier program. Some upload sites let you choose a different size for it to change for you.

Unfortunately, a lot of cloaks that people have these days are made of the entirely incorrect cloth, and should not have a sheen or be so thin and full of clingy folds.

[glyph07]

Yes, fabric are different in the ways they impede or allow certain movements.However, thinking about it again I don't believe this factor should really concern designers. If in the cutscenes we see Garrett wearing a cloak, it doesn't mean he actually use it when he steals.

Obviously if T4 will have 3rd person, then, for those who plays it this way, it does matter what Garrett looks like while "working", assuming he would wear a cloack. Personally, I feel totally indifferent towards any image proposed to respond 3rd person purposes, first and foremost because I play 1st person, secondly becuase it doesn't really affect the details that the game allows me, as player, to add up by the means of my imagination. As I don't consider 3rd person a choice I approve I simply cut out from my mind everything imagined and related to it. I cannot prevent EM to pursue this path and therefore I try to ignore anything related to it although very frustrating.

So to me, the question over the look of Garrett is confined to the custscene and to a more definite and cosistent style given to them. A massive problem would emerge if his face is shown (as proved by the different tastes we all demonstrate to have in the Art Thread) but otherwise, the less details given on the man the better it is for the players who should always live among shadows as Garrett does.

[Namdrol]

MS Picture Manager is pretty good for very basic editing.
It's what I use for brightness/contrast adjustments for beta testing snapshots, I've got some decent editing programs, which I use a lot (Paint.net, Photoshop etc) but it's simpler and easier to use Picture Manager for quick basic batch editing..

But Paint.Net is superb, it's free and very powerful.

[Yaphy]

I want a cloak when Garrett "works" because (sorry for this but it's true) it's bad-ass and...cewl. It doesn't matter if it is realistic, I dont care if it would get stuck in stuff and be in the way. It's a game, and this is another example where the gameplay goes before realism...even if it's not "gameplay", but still.

[jtr7]

If Garrett can do all he does with all that equipment and gear hanging all over him, then a cloak is no big deal. Realism's already out the window for fun's sakes. The movies and box-art are still perfect for showing how cool he is as a non-action star.

[Yaphy]

I'm not really sure what you want to say. Do you want a cloak in-game when Garrett is thiefing or do you say it's enough as it is in the cut-scenes?

[jtr7]

I was saying that realism is not an issue regarding his cloak. As for the rest:

Since I don't care to see Garrett in-game, and am vocal against 3rd-person and body-awareness's limitations on game-mechanics and against the time spent animating so much for less player-chosen overall navigational possibilities, I'm saying not seeing the cloak (or Garrett at all) in-game is not important to me in the least, but the movies and box-art can show him as usual, as a cloaked silhouette, mostly.

[HeyLight!]

For me Garret has always been rugged and carefree in his look. And that's not the 'James Dean handsome' carefree look, that's the 'ugly, scarred and slightly odd looking' carefree look. I'm sure for lots of other people, Garret is a medieval version of Bruce Wayne meets Johnny Depp. But I see no unruly locks of hair dangling down from beneath the hood, nor do i see the superhero pose in cape and mask. In my opinion, the long cape will just make it feel like arkham asylum, and it would be a waste of animation to see it flying in all directions and implement proper physics (otherwise it would look naff).

[jtr7]

He should be practical, pragmatic, and almost lazy in the upkeep of his appearance, as anyone intensely involved in a hobby and specialized way of life where appearance is not important is. Short hair makes sense. Just chop it off. It's less to deal with and never in the way.

[HeyLight!]

Also have you noticed that when you take a peek at Garret through an orb in The Metal Age (as we all have - admit it), he has very good posture. The back breaking, crouched over look in DS makes him look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame (or the Hunchback of The Hammerite Cathedral should I say)

[jtr7]

Even though his job is creepy, and requires creeping, he's not supposed to look like a creep. A beat-up librarian rock-climber, sure.

[Loup]

People, a cape is short, what is shown in these pictures is a cloak.

As with glyph I'd say that it ruins the freedom of imagination by being given an definite design of Garrett. I'd also say that no matter if there is a third person mode or not, a cloak should not be included. Lot's of work on something which is nothing but "kewl". Animating it will also be a lot of work. I don't see why that time should be wasted on a single aesthetic addition when it can be used on other animations which is of much higher priority.

[jtr7]

Agreed on all counts!

[Hamadriyad]

He is the thief with thousand faces! He should look different in every cutscene If he will show up.

[Loup]

I liked how you never really got a good look at him except when he's a kid. I try to ignore the horrible fully illuminated view of TDS.

Don't know where to post this but for the first time I saw the thieves guild mission and the first seconds of gameplay from thief gold. I've kept these last pieces of unexplored parts for a long time, but today I couldn't resist. I borrowed the game from a friend and I've just exited the game to write this.

It was so awesome to see cutscenes which I have never seen before. And to hear Garrett's voice utter words which was completely new. It was like finally opening that bottle of wine which has been left to age for years and have aged nicely :D:D

[jtr7]

Absolutely! I love it when taffers discover something for themselves for the first time after all these years. Fun fun fun.

[ferus-olin]

i think garret should be more like in thief 3, but should have multiple cloaks that blend into environments like the forest out side the city or in the snow or his plain old black one. mostly i say this because i want missions outside the city....

[jtr7]

That's a great example how adding one feature leads to adding several new things that all have nothing to do with actual gameplay and only appeal to the eyeballs.

[N1CK]

I personally think Garrett should have an entirly new look for this new game, but also have some apperance details from Thief 1 and 2 added in. This would give players who havent played the earilier games(which i dont recomend doing) a sence that they belong and dont need to follow in everyone else's track. It would also give Thief veterans a refreshed look on Garrett's aperance from the first games.

-N1CK

[glyph07]

I personally think Garrett should have an entirly new look for this new game, but also have some apperance details from Thief 1 and 2 added in. This would give players who havent played the earilier games(which i dont recomend doing) a sence that they belong and dont need to follow in everyone else's track. It would also give Thief veterans a refreshed look on Garrett's aperance from the first games.-N1CK

1) How would u have this new look?

2) Which details should be retained from TDP and TMA?

[N1CK]

1) How would u have this new look?

2) Which details should be retained from TDP and TMA?



I would say that his "new look" would be more like a phantom of shadow with a large cloak and a dark utility shirt/pants below and have his look less like a rugged traveler from TDA. What i would want from TDP and TMA is Garrett's sort of shirt/hood combo that he has, it goes well with the whole feel of belnding in with shadow/your enviroment and it seem to also give him alot of mobility, unlike the large cloak would. :D

-N1CK

[Loup]

so you want a new look like a phantom with a large cloak, but you would not want him to wear a cloak?

[DarknessFalls]

Why would new players feel like they don't belong if u kept the old style Garrett? If that's the way you feel, then merely having the game say Thief '4' would make newcomers feel unwelcome; Garrett's looks wouldn't have much to do with that. Either the game is good and you want to play, or you don't. If you build a good game, they will come.

And since EM shouldn't really be showing Garretts face anyways, hopefully there won't be much issue.

If I'm a newcomer to the God of War series, I shouldn't ask the developer to change the main character's look to make me feel welcome. I should feel honored to enter their series and be curious to play the older titles if I like the latest installment.

[esme]

ultimate difficulty look - Garrett is dressed as a one man band with luminous clothing and a glowing neon blackjack

[N1CK]

so you want a new look like a phantom with a large cloak, but you would not want him to wear a cloak?


Im not saying he wouldnt wear a cloak, im just saying not wearing one would be an alternate. :D

-N1CK

[Nothke]

Huh, funny, I have always taught that Garrett is a week and very tall person, has a strong standing figure (in T1 and T2). While in T3 you see he was sweating like a pig in a gym, and has some kind of back problem "rendering" him in an almost crouching position! I really didn't like that style in T3

I would love to see the cloak in game, with the nice cloth physics applied =) But of course.. Just visible in the mirrors and scouting orbs, cause I don't support the 3rd person view.

[Platinumoxicity]

I would love to see the cloak in game, with the nice cloth physics applied =) But of course.. Just visible in the mirrors and scouting orbs, cause I don't support the 3rd person view.

And also if you can see your own shadow ingame. ;)

[DarknessFalls]

ultimate difficulty look - Garrett is dressed as a one man band with luminous clothing and a glowing neon blackjack
Oh, this has been mentioned before... back on the old ISA forums in one form or another. :)

[esme]

Oh, this has been mentioned before... back on the old ISA forums in one form or another. :)

poo! and I thought I was being original :(

[Ardanna]

I'm voting for DS Garrett but they should improve it alot, soemtimes he didn't even have the scar. + cloak.

[jtr7]

Turn the glowing eye off. It never glowed and it doesn't make sense for it to glow. And bring back the clockwork, addonizio crystal lens, oil-filled brass orb, with interleaved iris. What also doesn't make sense is Garrett showing arms. Cover them with something to hide the light-catching skin-tones. Creating a sense of physical vulnerability and versatility is welcome, but not a vulnerability to sight. We need to see him much less than in TDS, and much less when he's in shadow. Make him look prepared for his missions into the underworld as well as on the streets of The City and especially inside of a hundred kinds of buildings and homes businesses, like a guy who learned stuff from Keepers that no one else would know. Dress him for survival against nature, crumbling structures, thickets, hugging stone and wending around tree trunks and thick branches, becoming immersed underwater, slithering through holes and ventilation systems, living in a damp and cool coastal City with four seasons but with steam systems and fires and volcanism. He's not supposed to be seen and not supposed to be fighting, so his clothing should be more adapted to his job and what he always goes up against when he's perfectly hidden and perfectly undetectable. The world, the terrain, the dangers of nature and entropy of abandoned structures, not combat. Blackened leathers and wools--dark grays more than blacks, and built for agility and protection of bones and vitals. He has health potions, and other potions are available, whether we see or use them or not, and that should influence what Garrett is willing to sacrifice in way of defensive gear. The devs need to actually understand what it means to have so much health potion available to this one man. They need to build the world, story, and backstory to reflect that these things, and all the magic and energy phenomenon and crystals actually exist and potions are only rare for the poor.

If he's got climbing gloves, then his knees, boots, and elbows shouldn't stick to walls well just for wearing the gloves, unless the gloves are magic and it's described as such, and his clothing should reflect that he's got vertical surface climbing abilities, from hands, to toes. If he can stick to stone, then wood walls, trees, and beams, should be a given.

He's not an action hero, and he's never displayed any vanity for his looks, so he shouldn't look video game action hero kewl, just prepared for specialty thieving. Keep it consistent across the board...except for his face--If you show the whole thing, do it in a cutscene when he's alone, not all the time, and keep the ratio changing. He should not look boyish, though, and don't forget he lived on the streets for some time before he became the one guy with the most health potions available--wounds that close without preparations and health potions are permanently scarring. Organs and limbs don't grow back (except the liver, of course), with or without health potions. Wounds closed, and bones reset, with health potions and magic probably don't leave much of a sign. Scars don't appear out of nowhere for no reason, and we've yet to get an explanation for his frikkin' TDS scar. How many characters can have a long scar bisecting the orbital before it's old? Viktoria removed his eye quickly, cleanly, and elegantly, and Garrett ate plumsies not too long afterword. There was no scar across his orbital all the way up to TDS. It makes no sense and it's purely superficial marketing crap. His empty socket and artificial eye are quite enough.

[Ardanna]

Wow you know alot, I like the scar on his face it brings across his attitude very well. cynical, highly disciplined and self centred. From what I have gathered Garrett is not a nice person.

[jtr7]

Scars don't convey attitude, but experience. He can have scars, but they shouldn't be from his adulthood, and they shouldn't be a cheap superficial contrivance, especially such a common one. TMA gave him a scar on his cheek, away from his eye, and doesn't interfere with canon.

[esme]

I have several scars, one where some idiot threw a brick and nearly took my eye out, one where a wall got in the way of my head after I slipped on some ice and another where a chair attempted to knock some sense into me when I was little

and those are just the ones on my head

I'm a nice person really I just have a few dents

[Shadow Blade]

I was thinking he should look more like his old self from thief 1 & 2. I personally wouldn't mind if they changed his look but along as it's nothing to drastic and he should look far more mysterious than in TDS.

[Rieknor]

Well everyone said about the costume, and i agree.

About his face, should be like TDP (When Constantine told him about "The Eye" and he is sitten in the chair)
Like that but with the scar(a little smaller that TDS) and the "bionic" eye.

And about the body, mmm, he should be taller(just a few cm) and when he is in "action" having the posture of someone who doenst want to be detected.(curved, like allways)

[Ardanna]

But when seeing it you can guess that the person has had a rough life. I think it looks good with him. Though an explation would be good.

[Dooley]

Garrett has a very distinct look.
Messing with this means messing with Canon. Don't mess with Canon. Don't mess with Thief.
You want to produce Thief? That's cool. You want to mess with Thief and 'design' something 'new and exciting' you need to be slapped and thrown out a high story window.
Garrett had a look and a gameplay design in the first installments. Then Spector got a hard on for sandbox gameplay and third person cameras.
Soon after, his studio shut down, and now Ion Storm is a memory.

Don't mess with Thief any further, please. The logo is bad enough. Just make the game, sell your copies, collect your pay cheque, and be thankful you have a job in 'the industry'

Oh and once the game is out, do us (the community) a favour and release the toolset.
Don't screw around with this either, and force us to hack our own.

[GabSoh1]

Hey
I'm new.
I think Garret should lose the cape cause it would really just get in the way
I think TDS Garret with a face mask or somthing

[KimVengeance]

In the attempt to give Garrett a certain look, the previous game T3 failed to make his face look good, or fully finished. The other characters looked more fully rendered in the face area. How about just make him look like a human who needs a shave. I assume he has dark hair.

[Nephthys]

I enjoyed all facets of Garrett, except the one in TDS where he had a really long face. The glowing eye was un-needed, especially with a scar to go with it.

[glyph07]

Hey
I'm new.
I think Garret should lose the cape cause it would really just get in the way
I think TDS Garret with a face mask or somthing

Garrett the Phantom of the South Quarter! :D

[Sharazito]

He should look sexy.. Thats all.. :)

[Fatherwoodsie]

i dont even want to see garrett......i just want to see a black silouhette

[Lyte]

He should look geriatric, and his age should play a part in game play mechanics. If Garrett is doing parkour moves in the4f because it is "cool" I cry.

Old Garrett would suit me fine.

[jtr7]

Why would Garrett be old? He's in his 30s at most, and he drinks health potions like crazy. He stays out of the sun and eats well. But I agree he shouldn't be doing anything kewl or parkour-like, especially with all the cries for encumbrance, when he'd be hauling around hundreds of kilos, and stuff.

[Lyte]

@jtr7

You assume that the next Thief is set right after T3, I wouldn't mind if T4 would be set few decades further.
If they wan't to reboot the franchise it could be a smart move.

[Vae]

If they wan't to reboot the franchise it could be a smart move.

No reboot, bad move...:mad:


He should look like classic Garrett, still young in his 30's. There, was that so hard...and how can anyone not want this?

[jtr7]

@jtr7

You assume that the next Thief is set right after T3, I wouldn't mind if T4 would be set few decades further.
If they wan't to reboot the franchise it could be a smart move.

I assume nothing. I speak my wishes for a continuation, knowing the story is ripe for some delicious irony and tackling new challenges using new and hard-fought gains, and do not rule out a reboot or overhaul or even a mangling of another title.

[Lyte]

@Vae

Me?

It worked for Metal Gear Solid (look wise), and when you thing of what Frank Miller did for Batman (Dark Knight returns), geriatric protagonist could work just fine.

[Lyte]

@jtr7

Why would Garrett be old? He's in his 30s at most, and he drinks health potions like crazy.

That is an assumption.

[jtr7]

Why do you say that? He left the Keepers in his early twenties, and although it was some time before we stood with him outside Bafford's, there's no indication of many years passing, and he's just beginning to gain his reputation and finally acquiring his first lockpicks. He's superstitious and less sure of himself. We've been told by the devs that TDP/Gold takes place over the course of a year, TMA begins two years later, with most of a year passing over the course of it, and one year has passed by the time TDS starts (though it seems even sooner, ignoring the 99% omission of the basic City technology that existed over 50 years before the Mechanist movement). Based on how young Garrett looks in the cutscenes of TDS, compared to how young he looks in the previous games, he looks really young if he's approaching or passing 40. I wouldn't mind an older Garrett, but I'm much more interested in the story possibilities set up in TDP/Gold, nurtured in TMA, and untouched in TDS. An explosion of events are possible, and I'd like to see them, as long as EM has not even told us Garrett will be in-game or that it won't be a reboot or modern or anything.

[Lyte]

"He is in his 30s at most..." is why I say that.

That statement is not relevant unless you assume that it has relevancy - that the next game continues "soon" after the 3rd one. In truth we don't know how much time has passed between 3rd and 4th Thief game.

[Fatherwoodsie]

@jtr7

You assume that the next Thief is set right after T3, I wouldn't mind if T4 would be set few decades further.
If they wan't to reboot the franchise it could be a smart move.

the setting for all thief games is medeival times, several years later makes no difference. just keep garrett the same

[Tryst]

If he only shows part of his face with the hood obscuring most of it or a vague shape of his face in the darkness, his age won't matter. I feel that there should be an air of mystery about Garrett, even to the player. The vague hand drawn "wanted" posters don't really give much away and that seems to be what Garrett is all about, anonymity in all but name.

[jtr7]

Lyte wants Garrett to grunt more and have his joints cracking or something.

[Vae]

Elderly Garrett in a brand new reboot...:nut:

[PlumsieTaker]

Lyte wants Garrett to grunt more and have his joints cracking or something.

In that case, those "health" potions actually contain Metamucil, with arthritis relief medication available for purchase before a mission

[jtr7]

Hopefully. Does he sound like ol' Artemus, though? If so, Nate Wells could do the voice if Stephen Russell's unavailable.

[Tryst]

In that case, those "health" potions actually contain Metamucil, with arthritis relief medication available for purchase before a mission
Maybe we should consider replacing the sword/dagger with a Zimmer frame. Make him sound more like the grandad from The Simpsons and include the ability to fall asleep halfway through a sentence.

Edit: Maybe we should be thinking about a key binding to prod him awake again if he does fall asleep.

[jtr7]

His eye could give him a wake-up call if his eyelid covers the lens for more than ten straight seconds. It could send a shock and a "WAKE UP!" image to his brain.

[Tryst]

His eye could give him a wake-up call if his eyelid covers the lens for more than ten straight seconds. It could send a shock and a "WAKE UP!" image to his brain.
:D That would have to be "WAKE UP LITTLE MAN!"

[DarknessFalls]

I don't think we know for sure that the passage of time and its effects on life in the Thief universe is equal to our own. No matter if it was equal or not, T4 doesn't need to have Garrett aged any older that he was in T1/T2. T4 could start the day after after T2 concluded for all I care. Or the day after T3 ended, if necessary. But I sometimes pretend T3 doesn't exist. I think EM should make a proper T4, using creative license to pay little heed to T3, then go back and make a proper T3 that bridges T2 to proper T4 :) In the end, ISA's T3 would then not be a part of the official series. Then, those who wish to remember improper T3 will remember it, while those who wish to forget it can more easily forget it. Let me snap back to reality now... :D

[jtr7]

People age like we do in that universe. Being told how much time has passed from one event to another and who was there and how they are depicted in the games is our clue. Keepers had a couple of Glyphs for reversing age, but it was considered forbidden and unbalanced to give into that temptation.

[Lyte]

Having a geriatric Garrett (late 50's or so) would be an excellent plot device. First of all it would give the Keeper prophecies some proper scale (time wise). The little girl in T3 ending would have matured, and she could play a part in the story (being trained by Garrett she would make an excellent friend/foe).
Having him being older, would put things back to status quo quite naturally, - he is once again poor and needs to resort in petty thievery at first to pay his landlord (as it was in T1) until he has a chance to do that one last big score....

Garrett's age could show in his one liners and be part of the narrative. As Tryst said His age won't matter since we never really see him clearly.

[Platinumoxicity]

I have this sense of protecting Thief 4 and that's why I feel the need to use bright colours and different font sizes to distract everyone's attention from one of the wrong subjects that was once again brought up in the post before this one. And BTW if you look at the post now after reading this, you lost the game. ;)

This post fails because it only manages to advertise the subject that I want everyone to forget. Please people with sensible legitimate criticism of the subject, don't try to convince people having those ideas that the ideas are destructive to Thief 4. Ignore anyone talking about it. Quoting them makes it just stand out more when it should be buried.

[Pfwee]

He should look sexy.. Thats all.. :)

I Totally agree here. To go with the sexy voice (which i hope will still be the same) But nothing is sexier than mystery. (ok female player here i think very few of us keep us happy pease) :)

[Platinumoxicity]

If Garrett would let his beard grow a bit thicker it would actually be a tactical advantage. If he suspects that someone might have noticed him, he could shave it off. A cheap disguise.

Anyway, even if we were to see Garrett in some point of the game, he should look very inconspicuous. Nothing fancy. People wear hooded cloaks in the cold nights in the City. As we could see in TDS, leaving his cloak home made him look a lot more suspicious, with all the thiefy equipment clearly visible for all to see. And every City Watch guard was all over the shady-looking creep. Garrett should wise up and act less self-destructively. I don't think Garrett would deliberately make things more dangerous or harder for himself just to up his ego. There's a curfew in the City that states that nobody is allowed past district gates after dark. But people are still free to walk around in their own neighborhood even though they can't go to a different part of the City. Garrett is no exception. As long as he doesn't look like a burglar on the job and he doesn't get caught breaking any rules the Watch should leave him alone just like they leave everyone else alone.

[Tryst]

If Garrett would let his beard grow a bit thicker it would actually be a tactical advantage. If he suspects that someone might have noticed him, he could shave it off. A cheap disguise.

Anyway, even if we were to see Garrett in some point of the game, he should look very inconspicuous. Nothing fancy. People wear hooded cloaks in the cold nights in the City. As we could see in TDS, leaving his cloak home made him look a lot more suspicious, with all the thiefy equipment clearly visible for all to see. And every City Watch guard was all over the shady-looking creep. Garrett should wise up and act less self-destructively. I don't think Garrett would deliberately make things more dangerous or harder for himself just to up his ego. There's a curfew in the City that states that nobody is allowed past district gates after dark. But people are still free to walk around in their own neighborhood even though they can't go to a different part of the City. Garrett is no exception. As long as he doesn't look like a burglar on the job and he doesn't get caught breaking any rules the Watch should leave him alone just like they leave everyone else alone.
I think his notoriety has been his downfall. Most of the City Watch know him and look out for him but I agree to some extent that you should only be recognised if you get too close or you go out looking like you're up to no good or you do something wrong. For the most part, I would say that he could look like any other citizen of the town, even if he walked past the City Watch 4 or 5 yards away. If he gets closer than that, he runs the risk of being recognised.

That way, if he plays the part of the law abiding citizen, nobody gives him a second look, he has free roam in the town as long as he keeps his nose clean and keeps a respectful distance from the City Watch. This would make it difficult to enter an area with a guarded entrance because he would have to get too close to the guards.

[Dominus]

this should be the main reference for Garrett

I don't mind a new redesign, but keep it as close as possible to the original!

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2783/garrettcollage.jpg

[HeyLight!]

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/media/themes/hammertower_standard.jpg

That is exactly how much of Garrett's face you should see, maximum. No more. No more glowing eyes and definitely no freely flowing locks of hair (not that there ever were, but I've seen some fan art...)

Also I always picture him with stubble but who knows, that's my image of him.

[jtr7]

Stubble...

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Garrett_TMA_Model.jpg

[negative_len]

Haven't read topic. However, Garrett's portrayal throughout all three games has been so different from scene to scene that there's often little continuity. I think we're better off pointing to individual images. Anyone got a nice big gallery somewhere?

[jtr7]

They all have things in common.

Collage by Nitocris (First Version):
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/GarrettCollagePreview_Nitocris.jpg

Big gallery (may be duplicates in there):
http://www.mediafire.com/?yoxfmcjnvnn

[windwalker]

I don't know why, but I suddenly dreamt of a very old Garret. Now I know this concept has been used in MGS4 (and forgive me if it was mentioned before) but it suddenly felt like it would make more sense.

Garret. Old fox. Everyone believes he has disappeared, but in fact he had only became much more better (in mind) then he ever was, and thus no one can relate the "mishaps" all around the city with him.

People do not notice of his existance.. he is almost the "true keeper", but he uses this "unnoticed" status to his deeds only.

But then, something else happens as we start our story. What might it be? Re-appearing Viktoria? Some trouble for the girl he trained in past? Necromancers promising him a longer life to use him to their deeds? (Shadows upon you mortal Garret. We notice your pride, and joy, and greed... And your intention to keep this up is greater then any other mortal desire. We have the power to give it to you Garrett... But we would need... payment... in return. The heart of Ultimus is our desire. Endless life is your desire... Smells like the corpse of a deal, right?)

An old Garret leaves enough space for an interesting change, brings some seriousness and dark theme into story but is also familiar.

Probably in his mid fifties?

[jtr7]

That's more reasonable. At least it's not like a recent suggestion he could be a geriatric strangler.

[Lyte]

Lol, jtr7. So you mixed two totally different topics together to form an negative opinion on my suggestion of Garrett in his fifties.

Anyways, I agree with windwalker, "very old Garrett" would be a good look for him.

[Hypevosa]

I do agree that while he may be very old, at the end of TDS he does suddenly become 18 again - or it looks like it given the rather sudden complete lack of facial hair and wrinkles, and the perfect skin.

[jtr7]

He looked young even before TDS, and in every TDS cutscene that is not in-engine crap, he's young.


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TG_B16_04.jpg

[Hypevosa]

Maybe it's the lack of a scowl or cautious glance then that makes him look younger.

[jtr7]

Hahahaha! He's not curmudgeony enough!

He's crinkling his face as best he can here:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/GarrettOnTrial03_Bright.jpg

Oh the irony of this low-poly face in a newer "better" game:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/FirstContact03.jpg

[xAcerbusx]

He looked young even before TDS, and in every TDS cutscene that is not in-engine crap, he's young.


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TG_B16_04.jpg

Beat me to it. I was going to point that picture out.

Garrett, in my mind, is fairly young. Maybe late '20s. He's just world-weary and sardonic because he's done lots of "hard living". Save the world three times, and that will happen.

[Dayen]

Beat me to it. I was going to point that picture out.

Garrett, in my mind, is fairly young. Maybe late '20s. He's just world-weary and sardonic because he's done lots of "hard living". Save the world three times, and that will happen.
Consider that 45 is probably considered "old" and anything past 50 is "ancient" in The City, and I'd place Garrett at around 25. Sitting him closer to 35 for Thief 4 wouldn't be bad at all, although his age is of less importance than the key details: he should be disheveled, face unshaven, hair unkempt when you can see it. Because of his eye he wears a cowl at all times, day or night, and the only difference between day and night would be the addition of an entire cloak of a darker fabric to better facilitate breaking up his silhouette.

I realize the grumbling about "not third person" is going to be never ending, but if the game is developed on a modern engine, there will be a third person appearance either way, since the system will require him to have a fully developed model for, say, dynamic shadows and such. Which we do want.

[jtr7]

There's nothing to suggest or even infer that 50 is ancient in Thief, and there's little parallel to actual real life history, only borrowed architecture and concepts from scattered periods and entertainment media and places, peoples, and stuff.

Garrett blocking light and it getting noticed will kill the game, and shadow-casting is a realism that has a high cost if the player model affects the design of the world and the movement through it, as well. I do believe EM will pack in so much that was never important at the expense of what always was, instead of mastering the most important stuff, and then adding in extras.

[Dayen]

There's nothing to suggest or even infer that 50 is ancient in Thief, and there's little parallel to actual real life history, only borrowed architecture and concepts from scattered periods and entertainment media and places, peoples, and stuff.

Garrett blocking light and it getting noticed will kill the game, and shadow-casting is a realism that has a high cost if the player model affects the design of the world and the movement through it, as well. I do believe EM will pack in so much that was never important at the expense of what always was, instead of mastering the most important stuff, and then adding in extras.
I'm thinking about the number of people Garrett encounters likely to be older than 50 (and are human, I suppose I should qualify). I'm reaching a number approaching zero. Not empirical, per se, but good enough anecdotally.

Your expectations are too high. A game that is fundamentally a running dialog on light and shadow not having dynamic shadows isn't going to happen. It is going to require a fully realized model for the character. What you need to worry about is how organically the AI behaves in a situation like Garrett's cloak casting a shadow on the ground that isn't recognizable as humanoid, not how annoyed you are by the fact that Garrett has a cloak and casts a shadow.

[jtr7]

Once again, you perceive the opposite of what I said and why.

Have you played the games and never noticed all the gray-haired old men? Do you want a list of candidates? How old do you think the Widow Edwina Moira and the Captain were? Artemus? Any High Priest/Master Forger? The Earth Mages? Stephen Russell's voicework for the elder Hammerites was always a typical quavering, thin, and dry. How old was Constantine's human appearance supposed to resemble? How about Farkus? Once person we never did meet, so you would be correct in this instance, is the 70-year-old man who wouldn't sell the Serpentyle Torc 'cause he said he was saving it for a future wife. Another we never met, was Gervaisius's former gardener, Phyleas Crowell, who worked for two generations of Clan Gervaisius, for a total of 40 years before resigning in disgust. Warden Stout could've gone gray young.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127269&page=3

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3800/emage.pnghttp://img229.imageshack.us/img229/108/wizham.pnghttp://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3455/noblem02.pnghttp://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3070/noblew03.png

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6745/captainrobertmoira.jpg

[xAcerbusx]

Garrett blocking light and it getting noticed will kill the game, and shadow-casting is a realism that has a high cost if the player model affects the design of the world and the movement through it, as well. I do believe EM will pack in so much that was never important at the expense of what always was, instead of mastering the most important stuff, and then adding in extras.

That's quite an assumption.

I mean, given the state of the industry, the latter half of your post isn't that ludicrous, I was speaking more to the 'if Garrett blocking a light reveals his presence, game = broken' part.

If handled correctly, wouldn't that just add another dynamic to gameplay? Assuming (as we both are, now) that game designers take light placement into consideration when making a level, which is already the case in Thief 1-3, but for different reasons.

[MsMedieval]

I was THIS close to saying I didn't want to see his face then I read the 1st post more carefully :lol:

Ok, I prefer his look in Thief 1 & 2. Is it just me or did he keep changing in the cutscenes in Deadly Shadows? By the end of the game when his face fully appeared in the light he looked too soft for my taste. Nah, I like the more rugged looking Garrett, the one who I could barely see his face. I don't know....... there's just something sexy about a hidden face with only a mouth & a gleaming metal eye to see :o

[Platinumoxicity]

Ok, I prefer his look in Thief 1 & 2. Is it just me or did he keep changing in the cutscenes in Deadly Shadows?

TDS was the only game in the series where not only did they show Garrett's face all the time, but it was also the only one where Garrett's face was the same almost every time you saw it. Garrett should look different every time he is shown because he is:
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/c25400t2boxline.png

hidden face with only a mouth & a gleaming metal eye to see :o

If his face is in the shadow of the hood with only the mouth visible, his mech-eye doesn't gleam. Although the cornea is made of glass (or addonizio ?) so it might reflect some light. But then so should his other eye too. ;)

[Fatherwoodsie]

why is there two different forums that people still regularly post?

[Platinumoxicity]

why is there two different forums that people still regularly post?

Do you mean this one and the one in TTLG?

[Fatherwoodsie]

Do you mean this one and the one in TTLG?

yes i mean that one.. i feel so left out,:o;):lol:

[jtr7]

Not too non-modern, hood dropped back:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TG_CS11_00964.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TG_CS06_01379.jpg

[Dominus]

I love Garrett's attitude and pose in the last pic <3
and his costume design!

[SashaVorobyov]

I think that you need to make new Garret skin with hair and excellent texture. ^_^
I don't like all Garret skin, so I choose "A new design entirely"

[Ceri]

Assuming Garrett will make an appearance in Thief 4... Old. Well, not that old, but older. Because it's been a while since Dark Project, hasn't it?

[jtr7]

Less than ten years. He shouldn't be more than middle-aged. It would be odd if the devs made him more agile and graceful and powerful and more capable but his youth was spent.

[Jace_Auditore]

Something that I really hated from Deadly Shadows was that in some cutscenes Garret was wearing a cloak(like in the final cutscene and the first time he talks with first keeper Orland)and in another cutscenes(like when you first talk with Artemus)he didnt have it.I think that in Thi4f he should ALWAYS wear a cloak,he looks totally awesome with it,like a ghost.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711212336/thief/images/a/a3/Final_cutscene_19.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711212337/thief/images/7/7a/Final_cutscene_20.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711212415/thief/images/2/24/Final_cutscene_21.jpg

[Rieknor]

Something that I really hated from Deadly Shadows was that in some cutscenes Garret was wearing a cloak(like in the final cutscene and the first time he talks with first keeper Orland)and in another cutscenes(like when you first talk with Artemus)he didnt have it.I think that in Thi4f he should ALWAYS wear a cloak,he looks totally awesome with it,like a ghost.


I think so to, I HATED TDS when Garret have 2 entierly diferents faces. And I love the cloak. Although it must be inconvinient to sneek with that.

[jtr7]

His cloak was never always on in any of the games. I think he shouldn't be wearing a cloak when he's at home before a mission, or in certain contexts, but if they can make him not look like Batman, but like a guy who's dressed warmly for the evening chill of a coastal city where it snows and rains and fogs a lot, and if they can avoid the hero poses, and it doesn't require lots of cheating of physics to keep him from tripping or entangling in it, I agree he should wear the cloak more when he's on a job or just started or just got back or has gone to a secret meeting, etc. But not as a willing guest in a home, not hanging out in his own place, and not when he intends to be seen but not draw attention to who he really is or what he's up to (all scenarios from the games).

[xAcerbusx]

Elderly Garrett in a brand new reboot...:nut:

I can see it now: Starring Wilford Brimley!

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/XAcerbusX/Thi4f-Old-Age.jpg

[Hypevosa]

this image is priceless...

[michal.lewtak]

I just want him to look first-person-y.

[Platinumoxicity]

His cloak was never always on in any of the games.

That's a weird thing for me because... for some reason after playing through both T1&T2 I hardly see any evidence of him not wearing the cloak almost all the time. There was like... 2 occasions of him not wearing it, and in any video/pictures of him during a job he's always wearing it. Only in the 2 occasions when he goes to meet Constantine he doesn't wear it. The ingame model of him not wearing it was simply because of engine limitations that prevented any NPCs from wearing cloaks, even the keepers who are most known about their cloaky business.

On top of that, if you dismiss all the pathetic pre-rendered videos in TDS, and the t-shirt Garrett 3rd person model, Garrett still wears the cloak all the time in TDS too.

So I think it's safe to say that for some tactical reason Garrett likes to wear the cloak on missions as well as in the public. During missions the cloak can break the human form in darkness and make him harder to see, and in public the cloak can be used to hide any weapons or thiefy tools, making him inconspicuous to Watch officers.

[Taffer17]

I'd like to know what's going on with his scar, too. Viki didn't give it to him, although his TDS scar made it seem related to his mech-eye and how he got it. In T2, the vertical scar is well-below his eye, and does not reach or go above his eye, and the top of the scar points toward the outer corner of his eye. Again, I'd like continuity, and if he has a scar on his cheek, it should not be implied that it has anything to do with his mech-eye or eye getting plucked out. Please separate the scar from the incident involving his eye.

Maybe he woke up from a night of partying, was still groggy, fell and hit his face on the corner of his bed table, this leaving an embarassing scar for all his Hammer friends to poke fun at during future gatherings.


This was supposed to be in a Thief4 pic I never finished. I thought that since Garrett wore blue in T1, black in T2 (cover art) and whatever the taff it was in TDS, Garrett would wear brownish-gray in T4. And he'd have some stubble on his chin since it's winter. Oh yeah, since apart from the end cutscene of T1 we have only seen snow in FMs it would be high time to see some taffin' snow wouldn't it? :D
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/23a00garrr.png




Problem with snow is that 1) black's not very stealthy against a white background 2) It'd mean it's Winter. People are more likely to be out and away from home during Summer rather than Winter. During Winter, people usually stay indoors and at home, especially when there is snow that makes it hard to travel. There weren't snow plows back in the day so I doubt carriages could easily get through. Carriage accidents were just as dangerous as car accidents are now......although snow would still be cool to see :P

ultimate difficulty look - Garrett is dressed as a one man band with luminous clothing and a glowing neon blackjack

Kinda like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins :D


Why would Garrett be old? He's in his 30s at most, and he drinks health potions like crazy. He stays out of the sun and eats well.

So if he stays out of the sun that means he is lacking in Vitamin D and most likely has a depression problem :p

[Namdrol]

Unless of course he has a diet rich in fatty fish.

[Tryst]

So if he stays out of the sun that means he is lacking in Vitamin D and most likely has a depression problem :p
Well, he does have that "here we go again" quality in his voice :D I wouldn't exactly call it cheerful even with the witty comments.

[Saint Edgar]

The outfit in ds is, of course, very comfortable for moving and climbing, I still would like to see him back in a cloak, he´s just more like a gliding shadow for me :)

[The Atrophy]

Admittingly I did not read all six pages of this thread, so sorry to those who may have already said this:

I think Garrett should remain somewhat inconsistent in his looks. In every cutscene/piece of art he looks slightly different, which I really like. It keeps an aura of mystery around Garrett. I think theres a basic outline of what Garrett looks like - average height, white man, physically fit but not big and muscular, a slightly crooked nose, no facial hair, short hair.. am I missing anything? With these in mind its possible to make Garrett look a little different everytime while still keeping consistency. I also really like the cutscenes where all you see is his black outline, those were pretty unique.

[Odyseeos]

http://www.ironstarmovement.com/profiles/blogs/possible-sony-e3-megaton-thief

Cited by Bambini in another thread. I'm impressed with the look in the face of the picture. It's focused on what it's doing and isn't involved with naming itself; and some other stuff about it. The right arm was off, I thought.

[Hypevosa]

http://www.ironstarmovement.com/profiles/blogs/possible-sony-e3-megaton-thief

Cited by Bambini in another thread. I'm impressed with the look in the face of the picture. It's focused on what it's doing and isn't involved with naming itself; and some other stuff about it. The right arm was off, I thought.

that picture is from TDS...

And yes, his arms to look a little off....

[Asadar]

Orignally posted by jtr7

[...] not wearing his profession like a badge, not reveling in getting a reaction from anybody, rather seeking no reaction from anybody.

Right. Garret has many different appearances. The only thing that betrays his profession is his weapons whenhe is on a mission. "At work".
In my opinion, his face must remain a mystery, or a series of draft no more. Very close, but never exactly the same. As in the firsts Thief.
And his dress, without arms, must be enough simple to go unnoticed and neutral in its environment:

A doublet and pants, with leather boots, all covered by a hooded cape travel. Nothing too surprising for a medieval fantasy world. And of course, you can still have a sword (or a dagger, or anything as long as everyone is happy), a blackjack, etc., under this cape. The only problematic weapons are the bow and the arrows. Damn hard to hide.

I would be happy to see more caracter with a cape in the streets. Civilians and guards often wore it to protect from rain and cold. And in the videos of Thief, they are elements that we commonly found.

In that way, people and guard will not reconize you in the street like in TDS : "Ho! It's you, Garret."
No more that please. You are Garret, the Master Thief : "Never seen, never caught."

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

And yes, his arms to look a little off....

Yep. To much in my opinion. I like the look in his face, but I don't appreciate the design of his arms. They are too exposed, too showy. And above all, his costume seems to say "Hey! Look at me I am a thief! "
A good face expression with his eyes on the shadow of his hood, but the costume is not enough neutral.

Originally posted by Jace_Auditore

I think that in Thi4f he should ALWAYS wear a cloak,he looks totally awesome with it,like a ghost

Entirely agree with you. But with more shadows on his face, especially on his eyes (second and third of your images).

[Jack Lantern]

Garrett should definitely NOT be dressed in black. Black in not the color of night. It's fine for the shadows, but in instances where he is outside in full moonlight, black would make Garrett stick out like a sore thumb. However, dark blue would conceal him in the shadows, and would make him a bit less noticable in open areas.

[jtr7]

Garrett wore blue, and Keepers wore green, and I'd like to continue on with the insight LGS had.

[Vae]

Of course...:cool:

[Asadar]

Garrett should definitely NOT be dressed in black. Black in not the color of night. It's fine for the shadows, but in instances where he is outside in full moonlight, black would make Garrett stick out like a sore thumb. However, dark blue would conceal him in the shadows, and would make him a bit less noticable in open areas.

Did I say "black"? ^^

No, I agree with you. ;)

And I want him with a cloak, or a hooded cape, but not in black. Black is the color of the cinematics, to give a dark and strange atmosphere, but in-game, I better see him in a dark blue cape, with maybe a little undertone of green. That was a frequent color in medieval age, particularly for travel coats or rain capes.

[jtr7]

Yeah, only the silhouettes are black. He's darn near got a zipper on his old midnight blue coat.

[Asadar]

Yeah, only the silhouettes are black. He's darn near got a zipper on his old midnight blue coat.

What? A zipper? Damn... my french side is coming back. I don't understand what you mean. ^^

[jtr7]

http://www.13dots.com/zip.html

:D

[Asadar]

Hu... thanks. :D

But I know what is a zipper. I just wonder if you was joking (I think yes), and I don't understand "darn"( a gap in my English).

[Platinumoxicity]

Garrett should definitely NOT be dressed in black. Black in not the color of night. It's fine for the shadows, but in instances where he is outside in full moonlight, black would make Garrett stick out like a sore thumb. However, dark blue would conceal him in the shadows, and would make him a bit less noticable in open areas.

I did research for a stealth presentation in my English class 2 years ago, and it's actually true that dark grey, blue, red and green are effective colors for stealthy clothing. Black is not. Very few things in dim light conditions look really black, so a color with luminosity similar to most of the environment is better. ;) And the color is irrelevant because the rod cells in human eyes that work in dim light conditions can't distinguish colors.

[Odyseeos]

'Darn' was once extremely common. I still use it; as near as I could ever figger, it's wonderful. It serves two intents:

1. It's a euphemism for 'damn', the latter an oath that was not smiled-on outside restricted company when I was young. The principal intent of 'damn' seems to be, "Get it out of here or do something else; (whatever it is), it doesn't belong, is unnecessary, is undesired."

2. While running close beside 'damn', 'darn' seems to ask for a different response. If you think of a fabric that has a hole in it, to say 'darn' seems to carry a burden of wanting the lacuna (hole) to be closed up with the fabric made whole-cloth.

On the whole, 'darn' is softer and seems potentially re-constructive; 'damn' is hard, simple, and in the business of alienation. After 'darn', somebody might look for an explanation as to why some milk was spilt. After 'damn', there'd be a whuppin' if some sort, f'r sure.

When I was a kid, I seldom heard a woman say 'damn', Before adolescence, possibly never. Nowadays, to declare any mishap as 'thoroughly worthless', under either of two ultimate oaths, seems to be the choice. I guess, it's less terrible to damned than to be *****. Kinda sad; it was fun to watch my mother darn. You kinda want that other choice available.

[Odyseeos]

'Darn' was once extremely common. I still use it. As near as I could ever figger, 'darn' is wonderful; it serves two intents:

1. It's a euphemism for 'damn', the latter an oath that was not smiled-on outside restricted company when I was young. The principal intent of 'damn' seems to be, "Get it out of here or do something else, immediately; (whatever it is), it doesn't belong, is unnecessary, is undesired, is undesirable."

2. While running close beside 'damn' in sound, 'darn' seems to ask for a different response. If you think of a fabric that has a hole in it, to say 'darn' seems to carry a burden of wanting a lacuna (hole) to be closed up and the fabric made whole-cloth again.

On the whole, 'darn' is softer and seems re-constructive; 'damn' is hard, simple, in the business of alienation. After 'darn', somebody might look for an explanation as to why some milk was spilt. After 'damn', there'd be a whuppin' of some sort, f'r sure.

When I was a kid, I seldom heard a woman say 'damn'. Before adolescence, possibly never. Nowadays, to declare any mishap as 'thoroughly worthless'-- under either of two ultimate oaths-- seems to be the choice. I guess, it's less terrible to be damned than to be *****; and people seem to want for finality. Kinda tricky; it was fun to watch my mother darn. one kinda longs for that other choice to be present.

[Namdrol]

Odyseeos - one of the good guys

[Jack Lantern]

Did I say "black"? ^^

No, I agree with you. ;)

And I want him with a cloak, or a hooded cape, but not in black. Black is the color of the cinematics, to give a dark and strange atmosphere, but in-game, I better see him in a dark blue cape, with maybe a little undertone of green. That was a frequent color in medieval age, particularly for travel coats or rain capes.

No, you didn't say black. I'm almost sure of it. ;)

[Jack Lantern]

I did research for a stealth presentation in my English class 2 years ago, and it's actually true that dark grey, blue, red and green are effective colors for stealthy clothing. Black is not. Very few things in dim light conditions look really black, so a color with luminosity similar to most of the environment is better. ;) And the color is irrelevant because the rod cells in human eyes that work in dim light conditions can't distinguish colors.

Yeah, throughout the years, it's been a common misconception that black is more true to the color of night, and therefore would conceal you better than other colors. But growing up, I had to learn it myself. Many moons ago, my boyhood friends and I would play Ghosts in the Graveyard in the dead of night, and those who dressed in black were never successful. Even with only a little moonlight, black is much darker than the environment, and stuck out far more than they thought they did. :lmao:

[Asadar]

Thanks for explanation Odyseeos. ;)

You could make a good teacher. :D

And about the color, yes, a dark grey between blue and green is definitely better than black to hide.

[justmehere]

i say he looks different in the game ... i would like it when he will become sick because of the glyph!

i know most people dont like garret as mentor of the girls but i think she should be the new maincharakter and both should be designalbe .. but not garetts face and statue!

ok and a fat thief girl is not realistic ... ^^

or clothing and inventary are alternating mission to mission?

[Namdrol]

what?

[Asadar]

Namdrol, do you not understand too ? :D

[jtr7]

Garrett doesn't need to become sick from activating the Final Glyph, or from the Mark on his hand. He needs to worry about what's going to happen without the warning prophecies and the people who listened to them and were on his side that he didn't fully appreciate.

[Asadar]

And there are still others mysterious questions: what were the Glyphs really? And did they definitely gone?

[jtr7]

They have to be gone for a long long time. It should effectively be "forever", or it won't do the trilogy justice. I've hypothesized that the Glyphs are a product of whatever it is about that planet that raises the dead and makes rocks and plants sentient and makes the crystals. It's like what it is that makes atoms and the natural laws happen the way they do in that universe, including time. It's also the planet's form of speech--not directly or so simply, but I don't know how else to put it. Constantine used Glyphs for some things, an his symbol has been used like a Glyph.

http://www.ttlg.com/FORUMS/showthread.php?t=126313&page=1

[Asadar]

Well, we don't really know what they are, and why they were here. It's a bit easy to make them leave just like this, especialy when you don't even know from where they come and where they leave.
Glyphs are a sort of caracter in fact... with their own mind, and their propheties. But why? For what aim?

I don't think that is so easy "they are gone for ever". Even if they don't return in Thief 4, I think that we will hear about them. But on a different way.

Remember the common point of the three plots : "All was writen".

[jtr7]

Not forever, seemingly so, as in, not until all alive now are dead and Glyph knowledge is all but forgotten.

[Asadar]

Hmm... hard to tell in fact. ^^

The developpers can do everything they want with Glyphs. All seems to be possible with them : Return or not, new form, something about their origins or what they are. Even Necromancy can be indirectly linked to them.

I wondered... well, they are gone and their nowledge is lost... but how could you discovered a Glyph in fact? In TDS they talk about the "discover" of a new form of Glyph : "Transmutation Glyphs" (the source of power of the Hag). But how did they "discover" those Glyphs? Were they just written on a book or a wall? Or did they appear for their own will... like ever.

In fact, I wonder if Glyphs can appear like they can disappear. In truth, they knew they would disappear and that one of them would be the signal for all to leave. They had predicted this. But we know nothing about when, how and why they might return, just as we do not know why they predicted everything including their own departure. In sum, we know nothing of their mind, otherwise they have one.

(I think I digress a bit ... :D)

[jtr7]

Yes, the devs can make the game about unicorns, etc. We hope not, right? Pining for the Glyphs should be in the game, echoing the fans' sentiment, but as with all characters who've died in the trilogy, resurrecting them undoes the impact of the sacrifice, is cheap storytelling, is the easy path, and I want to see how Garrett likes getting his greatest wish at the end of TDS. "Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it." All the sacrifices should remain emotionally heavy, and never find relief from resurrection. Maybe the Necromancers could bring back the dead, and rub it in his face, but the devs shouldn't bring back the dead characters and elements and undo the impact of such a loss.

[Jack Lantern]

Ressurection... yeah, me thinks not.

How cheap ressurection is... exactly. There IS no emotional impact if you can just bring them back.

[Asadar]

If ressurection there is, a good reason for it there must be too. Be yes, you are right. The sacrifice have more sense. But for the moment, it is hard for me to imagine the Thief world without them. They were always here, and had always the last word. Even in TDS, they were right.

I am very curious to see what will happen without them. As you quote "Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.". I just wonder how the developers will turn this for Garret.

[Odyseeos]

NW corner, Lost City. Ante and fold, ante and fold, ante and fold.

[jtr7]

:D :thumb:

[Attack Nun]

I say he only needs his utility belt and a cape. Nothing more, nothing less.

So he should run around naked?

[Hypevosa]

This actually sounds like a really fun idea for a minigame/flash game.

Stealth Streaker....

Loves the wind between his knees but still doesn't want to be seen doing it, and doesn't mind picking up a bit of loots along the way.

[Asadar]

A stealth version of Nude Runner. :D

But I think we are straying a bit ... :rolleyes:

[Platinumoxicity]

There actually exists a stealth game where you need to go streaking. Metal Gear Solid 2. I have no idea what's the point of that scene, maybe it's just there to cater to the horny teenage girls that play the game.

[Vae]

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu24/DataLady91/Motivational%20Posters/streaking.jpg

[xAcerbusx]

"See something you like, Mon Capitan?"

[Vae]

:lol:...No, no...I don't swing that way...just adding to the fun.

[jtr7]

But seriously, I want Garrett to look exactly like he does in this picture:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/450px-Sarlat-medieval-city-by-night-9.jpg

[Asadar]

:lol:

Perfect ! Nice resume jtr7 :p:thumb:

[Nightwynd]

Agreed. Well done! :thumb:

[Xenoc]

I liked John P's design in the mod for TDS...

[Platinumoxicity]

I liked John P's design in the mod for TDS...

John P should've redesigned Garrett's outlook according to the beta model that's seen in some of the oldest TDS screenshots. The final Garrett in TDS had some sort of metal armor and some dumb ornamental metal things on his clothing, plus a t-shirt. The beta model was a simple dark suit with fully clothed arms and light leather armor. I liked the way John P removed the stupid disney-cliché eye scar though. Where did Garrett supposedly get that anyway? A meat cleaver juggling accident?

[Hypevosa]

John P should've redesigned Garrett's outlook according to the beta model that's seen in some of the oldest TDS screenshots. The final Garrett in TDS had some sort of metal armor and some dumb ornamental metal things on his clothing, plus a t-shirt. The beta model was a simple dark suit with fully clothed arms and light leather armor. I liked the way John P removed the stupid disney-cliché eye scar though. Where did Garrett supposedly get that anyway? A meat cleaver juggling accident?

Maybe it's a sign that someone attempted to, or successfully removed it from his person by force?

For the mission I wrote about taking out the printing press and the master print for the posters I was thinking some flavor text about what happened to Garrett while he was imprisoned would include a reference to that. Either some overzealous hammers coming in and removing the eye to remove one of the last traces of Karras, or the Watch removing it in an attempt to disable him and make his escape alot harder.

[Platinumoxicity]

Maybe it's a sign that someone attempted to, or successfully removed it from his person by force?

Removed what? The beta player model?

[Maleficen]

hmm, i voted "as in thief 3"

but, better, keep him as a shadow :P

[Hypevosa]

Removed what? The beta player model?

remove his mechanical eye.

[Asadar]

hmm, i voted "as in thief 3"

but, better, keep him as a shadow :P

TDS model was disappointing in my opinion. No cape, no ample clothing.
He was dressed as if it was written in big letters on his chest: "hey, I'm a thief, catch me."

Are you speaking about TDS in-game model ? Or cutscene look ? In cutscenes, it miraculously appeared with a cape. I found just a pity that we see his face too much. ;)

[Vae]

I agree...his original look is perfect.

[MegaTyop]

http://images.elfwood.com/art/v/a/vangelis/thief2.jpg

I Would Love To See Garret In Deadly Shadows With A Couple new Features Like The pic

[Hypevosa]

if that's yours, nicely drawn.

My only concern is the gigantic sword that has a compromisingly weighted blade. o.O

[jtr7]

Garrett the epic combat-ready comic-book action hero.


No thanks.

[LordGervasius]

Same as thief 2 or something equally as gienius.

See we don't expect much. Just that the game be ingenious in every way. Is that too much to ask?

[DarknessFalls]

--

[Hypevosa]

Garrett the epic combat-ready comic-book action hero.


No thanks.

I'm more concerned with the sword having all the weight in the tip and thinning towards the hilt... one good hit against anything, or being hit by anything (not to mention a hammer's hammer) and that baby would snap.

[jtr7]

It should be a useful tool, and Garrett shouldn't be a badass mofo killin' machine, and that should be the priority. It automatically disallows wacky kewl sword-shapes and flash.

[Pa3s]

Agreed! :thumb:

Well, he's a thief an no warrior, that shouldn't be forgot. I just think there shouldn't be thought that much about his looks. It's simple: He doesn't want to be seen, so it's not flashy. He needs some space for his loot and gear, but not too much because he still needs to walk, climb, sneak and swim. There shouldn't be much armour on it, except for leather. (I think the brown leather bracers should stay, too.) I like to cape, but it's too unpractical for actual operations. He should have a simple dress under it without any pieces of cloth hanging down, because this could cause problems with sneaking.

All in all, I'd say the designers should think mostly practical, style is secondary. They shouldn't orientate themselves by 'rogues' in other games (mainly RPGs), especially those manga stuff. Garrett's appearances in T1 and T2 were good, no need to change much.

[jtr7]

How should Garrett look in Thief 4?

He should never look bored or impatient in-game, unless the player has him staring at a wall or with certain death approaching.

[xAcerbusx]

I concur.

If there is third-person and if there is an idle animation, it should be something practical, like pulling his hood down a little lower over his face or pulling his cloak in tighter over his chest. Something like that.

[Teutone]

Most important part about Garrets secrecy is that he is unknown and can maintain that secrecy.
How to do it? First off, his face absolutely MUST NOT be shown. Second thing is his ability to vanish into shadows. Streamlined suit is very utilitarian and easily manageable, but it really sticks out from shadows and background, where as a dark cloak disperses the details and makes him harder to spot. It also helps with blending into crowds as travellers most often used large and heavy cloaks, but it flutters a bit.

Reasoning being that I favour a new design for him imitating his appearance from 1 & 2 combining it a bit with deadly shadows, beacuse there is really no reason not to wear a cloak over a stream lined bodysuit.

As for his persona reflected in appearance and/or animation: He is a Professional with a capital P. He is patient, calculating and practical.

[Asadar]

Yep, it sounds good for me.
But for his face I don't totally agree. I think we must be able to see a part of his face, but really just a part : chin, mouth and nose may be, but no more.
But never show his eyes, even when you are in the light : the hood always creates a shadow on his face...
As Acerbus said, with the hood pulled down a little lower over his face. ;)

[Platinumoxicity]

I just had a stupid idea for the 3rd person mode that some people want. Don't take this seriously. Whenever Garrett's face is in sufficient shadow to conceal it's features, he's looking straight ahead, but if he's standing in an illuminated spot, he turns his head down so that the player can't see his face. :D

[Kyrvias]

It was mentioned, but if they keep the city hub as something to do inbetween missions, then he should wear a cloak during. But come mission, the cloak is rolled and stuck on his back due to its impracticality in tight corners/for missions.

[Platinumoxicity]

As we've seen in the cutscenes not only in T1 and T2 but also in TDS, Garrett wears his cloak during missions. The reason why he didn't have it ingame in TDS (and in T2 too) was probably technical limitations of the engine.

[jtr7]

Animating and clipping nightmare. The cloak in a new game would still not actually hang freely and move according to its own physics, but be built of preset animations tied to the whole body movement, acting all at once. It can't snag or interact with the environment and can't have a solid collision hull, even though it's part of the model, and it will need to act like it's not there under the raised arms and around the legs. Since he's not Batman, it can only be built for aesthetics but not interfere or influence gameplay, other than any effect it has on the player thinking ("I'm even more invisibler and kewler!"). But no matter what, it's a lot more to animate than bones and joints, and also shouldn't act like a cape or invoke Batman at all.

[xAcerbusx]

But no matter what, it's a lot more to animate than bones and joints, and also shouldn't act like a cape or invoke Batman at all.

Depends on what you mean by 'invoking Batman'.

I'd argue that shots like this are more than slightly 'Batman-esque'.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/XAcerbusX/t2-uphigh.jpg

Garrett has a dash of Batman in him, just not 'spread your cape out and clear a room full of bad guys'-type 'Batman-esque', which is - I assume - what you're talking about.

[Hypevosa]

I have to agree, Garrett does remind me a bit of batman given their stealth approach, perceptiveness, fondness for cool tools, intelligence, and thoughtful approach to objectives (where time is given to make plans).

There are 2 distinct batmans that you often see in the same adventure.. There's stealthy, shadow-slinking sleuth batman - who tends to be the batman you see before he's come across/been caught by the main villain.... and then there's cape flying everywhere super action-y exposed/found out/escaping batman. Batman doesn't walk up to the villains and smack them in the face with a glove and challenge them to a duel... that's the police's way of approaching the situation with lights blazing and horns blaring. Batman has always taken as subtle and stealthy an approach as possible, and then the "flash" happens when stealth is no longer an option he can employ. This is because his motive is justice - his goal to catch the villain, and that goal never changes. In Garrett's case, his motive changes from theft and subtlety to survival - since he has no goal to pursued, escape and sanctuary are the response instead of action.

Just put a gargoyle next to Garrett in that picture and put a bat signal in the sky.

Sorry for the late night rambling.

It shouldn't be a cape in any sense either, it should be a cloak... full body conealment cloak - like in the depiction. If Garrett sported a cape in T4 I'd be pretty pissed.

[Asadar]

As we've seen in the cutscenes not only in T1 and T2 but also in TDS, Garrett wears his cloak during missions. The reason why he didn't have it ingame in TDS (and in T2 too) was probably technical limitations of the engine.

Right. But they were not obliged to do a Third Person Game. :rolleyes:

But now, we have the technology to make very good cap/cloak/clothes effects in a TPG.
Batman Arkham Asylum is a good example, to stay in the Batman-esque discussion.
The question would be, when the game will be there camera in third person (all the time, when the player wants, or only in transition sequences)? And in what context of gameplay (full action, scripted or limited sequences)? So especially how many characters have a cape/cloak/long clothes.
If we refer to the universe of TDP and TMA, Garret and the Keepers are far to be the only ones to wear capes or long clothes. Example: the guards who patrol outdoors under the rain or during the winter, are wearing a heavy cloak. The Hammerite wear a tabard or a long frock. Civilians are dressed very varied with weather and place where they are. In interior, no problem, but a beggar in the middle of the street will often have an old coat or a cape to live in the cold and moisture (TDP final cutscene in the snow for example). ;)

[jtr7]

Have you heard about how they made the cape effects for Batman:AA? Not a priority for Garrett.

[kin]

How should Garrett look in Thief 4?

Garrett is the best thief the world has never seen...

[Stormpen]

I just had a stupid idea for the 3rd person mode that some people want. Don't take this seriously. Whenever Garrett's face is in sufficient shadow to conceal it's features, he's looking straight ahead, but if he's standing in an illuminated spot, he turns his head down so that the player can't see his face. :D

That sounds interesting. It would probably make the game more realistic. Might be a bit frustrating for fangirls, though.;)

[jtr7]

Except, most of the fangirls like the voice and the fiction well enough.

[Asadar]

Have you heard about how they made the cape effects for Batman:AA? Not a priority for Garrett.

Yep, I know. (I'm a young 3D caracter modeler, so I know a bit about this.)
But that was just an example jtr. ;)

But, since Batman AA, we have others engines and solutions to made capes and cloaks.

Anyway, from my point of view, Thief 4 doesn't need a third person view. These are suggestions in the event that there would be one.
Besides, I'm just asking for NPC. Technically speaking, there are "simple" solutions (not so simple, but well controlled today) to make dresses, long cloaks or bons. For capes, it's a little harder if they are to be really pretty and they don't blot on the environment. :p

Of course this is not a priority but it would, I think, give a little "plus" to the game world. And it is quite feasible, without making the game unmanageable by our poor computers, if the game is on a base of missions and separate maps, without integrating a sandbox. :)

Ps : Fangirls are not the only ones who like the voice of Garret without seeing his face! :D

[Jon Antilles]

I myself like the Thief:DP/Metal Age outfit more than the DS, but if we see some new or improved from the previous ones, that can be great too, as long as its thievy

[AlexOfSpades]

Dark Project and Metal Age look.

Cloak: Yes
Scar: No

If you guys insist in taking out the cloak, then give him at least a hood and a scarf. Something needs to move when the wind blows.

[Asadar]

Scar: No

Yep. No scar as in TDS. Or if they give him one, I would like to see a less visible and less pronounced scar.

[Jon Antilles]

So the bring it on a point: in the Briefings there is no scar visible and those are closeups so WE ALL WANT NO SCAR
hood yes, cloak maybe, could be on and off takeable to make all happy

[Hypevosa]

I think I could accept the scar if it was actually given backstory instead of just miraculously appearing, making it seem an excuse to make him look more BA.

[Platinumoxicity]

I think I could accept the scar if it was actually given backstory instead of just miraculously appearing, making it seem an excuse to make him look more BA.

Right on.

But around an eye? Please... Thief has always aspired to surprise you with originality. When I first saw that Garrett had gotten that extremely unoriginal eye scar installed for TDS, I thought to myself... "C'mon, people who did TDP and TMA are better than this."

[Herr_Garrett]

I always assumed that the developers had read Pratchett's Night Watch. If you know what I'm talking about.

[xAcerbusx]

I think it's just a 'retcon'.

He got the scar from Viktoria. They forgot to throw it on there in Thief II (although he did have a separate scar a little further down on his cheek), so they added it in the third one.

That's just a guess, though.

[jtr7]

He had no scar in TDP, in the very scene of the infliction. His eyelid and cheek were undamaged. Viktoria was very deft and quick. The vines entangling him also were not thorny or lacerating. The close-up of his eye, once he escaped and was at his apartment, showed no damage to his face at all. It was a retcon, but based on nothing but a weak attempt to suggest that his mech-eye involved damage.

[xAcerbusx]

He had no scar in TDP, in the very scene of the infliction. His eyelid and cheek were undamaged. Viktoria was very deft and quick. The vines entangling him also were not thorny or lacerating. The close-up of his eye, once he escaped and was at his apartment, showed no damage to his face at all. It was a retcon, but based on nothing but a weak attempt to suggest that his mech-eye involved damage.

You're absolutely right. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

I guess all I was saying was that it didn't bother me all that much, personally. I mean... it's kind of derivative, but whatever. Could have been worse. He could be wearing an eyepatch!

[Asadar]

He could be wearing an eyepatch!

And he would become "black beard Garrett", the terrible pirate with a scar under is eyepatch, who roam around the city on a small boat alongside the little girl, who became his right arm! :D

[jtr7]

He could wear an eyepatch as mild-mannered Clark Kenty, Assistant to Warden Affairs, and when he takes his eyepatch off, he's Garrett, Master Thief, Savior of the Univ4rs4!

[Asadar]

:lol:

Well, remain a bit serious. (...says the one who first has derived to the topic. :D )

[Hypevosa]

Viktoria didn't cut open his eye, she needed to surgically and gently extract the eye so that it would be preserved - I'm sure a mushy or cut open eye wouldn't have served the purpose it needed to. His eye was "popped" out of his head.

One could argue that maybe it's a result of installing the mechanical eye, but we get a nice close up at the end of the Dark Project - a beautifully designed one, that shows us otherwise. Then in TMA we even get to see him prep the eye and put it back in his head, again no scar. So he didn't get it there either, and I would hope he didn't somehow have some catastrophe while putting it in where he had to remove it from his own skull in such a messy way (I imagine inflammation after an infection might justify the need to cut it out, but that would only be a problem if he'd been careless putting it in).

As in my mission I wrote, I like to think that he was caught by the city watch in some rather epic set-up, and that they removed his eye for one reason or another... maybe as "evidence" or just to be malicious, hence the scar. It would also explain the picture perfect posters.

Again... some sort of reason - some backstory. Obviously something had to go horribly wrong, and I like to think it would be no fault of Garrett's giving his more cautious demeanor.

[Platinumoxicity]

The scar that was present in TDS doesn't need to be justified, or explained or anything else. It can be left the way it is, in that game, to remind us of the multitude of other design flaws of that game. The scar doesn't have to be in T4. Let's just say that it's one of the flaws of TDS that is fixed in T4 in the same category with the other inconsistencies such as Garrett's lack of the cloak, inability to swim, use rope arrows or control his own thoughts.

[Hypevosa]

I'm fine with the devs keeping it for continuity if they want (though it should probably be resized if kept). It's really their call, and it doesn't bother me so long as they bother to be creative instead of just slapping it on his face.

[Platinumoxicity]

I'm fine with the devs keeping it for continuity if they want...

Yeah, continuity... I on the other hand think that adding the scar broke the continuity and removing it might fix it, but that's just my opinion. Having most of all the flaws in one game makes the rest of the series look better.

[jtr7]

TDS broke with so much continuity, it should not be the standard. For someone who quaffs as many health potions as he, any scars should be from his pre-Keeper childhood, and not on the front of his face. Attention to details like that are a big plus. The person who did the texture work for The Eye and Larkspur did a great job, while the modeler for The Eye and Dyan really blew it. And although the Saga of the Festering Wound was funny, giving Benny only a running gag that completely ignored the existence of health potions (which TMA AIs would drink, if they had one on their belt and were wounded) was not a good break with continuity. Treating the potions and crystals as power-ups instead of an actual part of that world, is also unacceptable and added to making TDS game-y and small.

[Hypevosa]

If we want to look at the DnD influence here, taking a potion that heals you of bodily damage doesn't heal you of diseases or poisons.

Also, given the cost of the health potions (250 gold) that probably means getting treated by a doctor would be alot cheaper, especially on a 3 copper per hour salary (I think that's quoted somewhere?).

DnD follows that rule too - making heal checks is cheaper, though it takes a few days to heal damage, rather than paying all that gold for even a potion of cure light wounds.

[Sharazito]

I like this one http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711212337/thief/images/7/7a/Final_cutscene_20.jpg

[Thumec]

I haven't played the series from the beginning, so far i've only played TDS, but honestly after looking at all of the outfits he's had, I think they should do something new. The outfit from the first two games really doesn't seem to fit with what (i guess) a thief would realistically wear, one would think a cape isnt very stealthy for thieving (I just keep thinking a cape would get caught on something), and the TDS outfit looked a little silly, although more practical.

[jtr7]

There's quite a lot that isn't realistic for such reasons as simple as that. Iconic is best. Considering the terrain he moves through, especially before the tame TDS world, snagging the cloak is the least of his worries.

[Platinumoxicity]

The TDS outfit had 2 main flaws. One being that it didn't have clothed arms which makes pale skin more distinguishable in the dark, and doesn't make sense when Garrett is working in the cold and damp night. The other thing... why the taff are there shiny metal ornaments and steel plate mail embedded to the outfit? That's the last thing an expert in covert operations would wear. The first rule of stealth-tactical equipment is "Nothing rattles, nothing shines."

The Thief III outfit (notice: Thief III not Thief DS) that can be seen in the poor quality pre-rendered cutscenes of TDS is actually better than the final outfit that shipped with TDS. Clothed arms, no shiny ornaments and standard blackened leather armor. Although the blue hue of the final outfit is better than pitch black, but everything in that game was blue anyway so...

The absence of the cloak/cape was obviously because of technical limitations. Garrett does wear the cloak but you can't see it ingame on the 3rd person model. It's visible in the animated cutscenes though. Before the 3rd person mode and the pre-rendered horrible cutscenes (which btw were made using the 3rd person model anyway) in TDS, and excluding the unanimated model in T2, we never saw Garrett without his cloak. In every cutscene and briefing, no matter where he went he was wearing it. The only reason why he wouldn't wear it was that during the time the technology to create dynamic flowing fabrics in real-time wasn't advanced enough to allow it being used in a game. It had nothing to do with stealth. Now the technology has advanced a lot, and taffers don't even need to slash banners to reveal secret passages anymore. They can just pull the fabric aside and step through. And Garrett, and everyone else in the city who don't want to be soaked in a rainstorm or freeze to death can have their handy cloaks back.

[Asadar]

They can just pull the fabric aside and step through.

I really like your shortcut. :D
It is a simple way of saying this even if it's not so easy to do, but yes it's true, now it's entirely possible to do it with current technology, and like that our deardear little caracters will kindly stay warm even in bad weather ! :cool: